The big oil spill in the Gulf

[CoolBreeze]

I'm a conservative that (like most) appreciates the environment. But I also believe in using it's resources to the fullest. For instance: Drilling in Alaska? If the entire state was one big oil derrick it wouldn't bother me. Any above ground-type drilling issues can easily be dealt with if necessary.

Now... having said that....

I sailed the Gulf of Mexico many times in my Merchant Marine days. I also piloted my private boat all along the cost of Florida. There are few bodies of water as pristine and beautiful as the Gulf. Bottlenose Dolphins would lead and follow our ship for miles. Flying fish would at times actually land on the deck. This is one special place.

I've always been REAL uneasy about drilling in the Gulf. If I were king, this wouldn't have been allowed. The impact to the environment, fishing and tourism alone would be catastrophic. And yet they drilled. This well for instance is 5000 feet into the water, and another 18,000 feet into the floor. If anything should happen, it would be an act of God to get it fixed.

This "accident" was bound to happen. Everyone knows it. And I cant just blame the US and oil companies because several nations are represented out there. When it especially comes to drilling in international waters, things get real fuzzy. But the damage to anyone's shoreline is crystal clear as to who pays. Question is... how many years until things get back to normal? In some cases, it could be decades.

[genlock]

Decades?

When crude oil is in the water ( esp in warm water), the volatile spirits tend to evaporate.
After time the whole mess is a lump of tar. Alaska was not ruined, despite the dire predictions of the media and the efforts
of fools with bounty rolls sopping up the wet crude. During WW2, hundreds of tankers were sunk of the east coast of the US
and nothing was done to abate pollution. Environmental result, nothing. I do agree that drilling companies need to take
precautions like auto shut-off valves, but draconic measures are not necessary. Yes, drill in Alaska or any where there is oil.
Someone should point out also that surface mining is safer than underground mining.

[Bob Campbell]

Good analogy in my morning paper for this spill.
Think Exxon Valdez, every two days for the next 3 months to a year.
Get ready to pay 4 bucks per shrimp. And forget the mahi mahi... you can't afford it.

At what point does that "drilly baby drilly" thingy become a zero sum game?
The oil bidness is okay, but the fishing and tourist businesses get wiped out.
I guess we can do without tourism (well, not in NC where I live) but gee , I'm gonna miss seafood.
At least, thanks to the law passed in 1986, BP is responsible for all cleanup costs. But...they face a maximum of 75 million in liability to lawsuits.

And if we drill for every known offshore deposit, and get it all, what do we do in ten years when it's gone?

Or, like 29 dead miners, is it just the cost of doing business and we should shut up and trust the oil and coal companies?

[CoolBreeze]

hundreds of tankers were sunk of the east coast of the US

Yes, but the Gulf Stream carried it north into open waters. Eventually it landed somewhere, but by then mostly dissipated. Here, we're talking about one of the largest tourist destinations in the U.S., not to mention possible impact that Alaska never dreamed of.

[Bob Campbell]

hundreds of tankers were sunk of the east coast of the US

Yes, but the Gulf Stream carried it north into open waters. Eventually it landed somewhere, but by then mostly dissipated. Here, we're talking about one of the largest tourist destinations in the U.S., not to mention possible impact that Alaska never dreamed of.

A hundred WWII size tankers equals about 8-10 modern day super tankers, so the tonnage of oil was, while large, not what you would think from hundreds of today's tankers.

[AmpedNow]

These kind of accidents are very rare. How many offshore rigs are there in the world? How many times has an accident of this magnitude happened in recent history?

Why are we even contemplating putting an economic noose around our necks voluntarily? Because this is what it amounts to...

We hear all of this small talk about "lessening our dependence on Middle East oil". Well, completely banning all offshore drilling will only increase it. As well as increase our petrol prices.

Do we also think for a second that this accident will stop other countries like Russia and China from drilling everywhere they can? Why should we just give up this economic leverage to other countries?

Why should we voluntarily cripple a key American industry, costing us thousands more jobs and billions economically?

I'm not downplaying how tragic this accident is potentially the ecosystem in the Gulf, as well as the local seafood and tourism industry. But we can't lose sight of the big picture because of one accident. These are the unfortunate economic realities we're dealing with.

The reality is our economy is and will remain dependent on this dirty energy source for many years to come. One positive in all of this is it may serve to fast track alternative energy development where we won't need as many offshore oil rigs. But again, that is still many moons into the future.

We'll see how this situation develops... It looks pretty bad all around.

[Bob Campbell]

Which industry are you talking about crippling?
We also lose thousands of jobs and billions of dollars if the fishing and tourism industries are crippled.
And there isn't enough oil in the gulf to put a dent in our dependence on foreign oil.
Then there's that whole moral argument about the US somehow being better than Russia and China because we won't stoop to their level to achieve goals.
You know, the whole "we treat prisoners better than you" thing because we hold the moral high ground. Or have we just conceded that we're no better than anyone else and we no longer hold ourselves to a higher standard. Have we given up that whole "freedom isn't free" thing?
Are we not willing to make ANY sacrifices for the ideas upon which this nation was created?
Would you rather pay more for gas and be truly free or just "drill baby drill" and be no different from any other nation?
When the health care bill was being debated there was all this "we're not going to be like the socialist countries" hub bub from the right, but that doesn't seem in evidence when it comes to matters like this.
We're the US. We're supposed to be better. We're supposed to lead.
Well, leadership isn't selective.
We can be energy independent and environmentally conscious. It's not an either/or situation.

[CoolBreeze]

By the way, just to make myself perfectly clear: I'm not claiming that we are doomed in any way. I simply say that the environmental and especially the TOURISM impact is something that could become far above the norm. This is akin to a huge oil spill surrounding the main islands of Hawaii. Unlike Alaska, where few people ever see the pipeline, this bad boy 'could" devastate the economy in several states from loss of fishing and tourism.

[genlock]

91,000 Germans were marched into captivity by the Soviet Red Army out of Stalingrad in 1943.
6,000 returned home in 1955. 10 years after the war ended.
Hardly water boarding.

[Greg Goodfellow]

I live near Sistersville, which at one time was the WORLD'S largest gasoline producer. We have oil and natural gas aplenty here. Obviously, with the antiquated procedures they used in the very late 1800s until about 1910, they've not come close to capturing from proven fields. Also, gasoline at 76 octane is being stored in Tyler County at upwards of one million gallons.

"Drill, baby, drill...just DEEPER." A European engineer lived here many years ago, and he was convinced then that there was a lot more oil to be had. Hardly enough to make us independent of our enemies, but it's a start. Use of specialized detergents would help extract the oil as well.

What about METHANE from landfills, the gas they also burn off at plants such as PPG north of New Martinsville, and capturing methane from coal mines?

It's all got to be part of the big picture...along with coal liquefaction.

Have we lost the national will to 'get 'er done,' like what we did with the space program, which now seems on life support?

[DJSHOCKLEY]

Which industry are you talking about crippling?
We also lose thousands of jobs and billions of dollars if the fishing and tourism industries are crippled.
And there isn't enough oil in the gulf to put a dent in our dependence on foreign oil.
Then there's that whole moral argument about the US somehow being better than Russia and China because we won't stoop to their level to achieve goals.
You know, the whole "we treat prisoners better than you" thing because we hold the moral high ground. Or have we just conceded that we're no better than anyone else and we no longer hold ourselves to a higher standard. Have we given up that whole "freedom isn't free" thing?
Are we not willing to make ANY sacrifices for the ideas upon which this nation was created?
Would you rather pay more for gas and be truly free or just "drill baby drill" and be no different from any other nation?
When the health care bill was being debated there was all this "we're not going to be like the socialist countries" hub bub from the right, but that doesn't seem in evidence when it comes to matters like this.
We're the US. We're supposed to be better. We're supposed to lead.
Well, leadership isn't selective.
We can be energy independent and environmentally conscious. It's not an either/or situation.

I'm curious as to just how far our beloved politicians are going to go in holding BP accountable not only for the clean up, but the overall economic impact..

[AmpedNow]

It's appearing more and more that government disaster response has not gotten any better since Katrina.

BP will be held accountable (and should be). But I thought Katrina taught us that FEMA should be ready to go at a moments notice.

Had the proper cleanup equipment been ready to deploy to the scene, it's very likely that the oil would never got close to shore.

Bush took a ton of heat for the government's bumbling of Katrina. All I'm saying is Obama should not get off the hook either if it's found that the government bumbled the response time on this as well.

[Bob Campbell]

It's appearing more and more that government disaster response has not gotten any better since Katrina.

BP will be held accountable (and should be). But I thought Katrina taught us that FEMA should be ready to go at a moments notice.

Had the proper cleanup equipment been ready to deploy to the scene, it's very likely that the oil would never got close to shore.

Bush took a ton of heat for the government's bumbling of Katrina. All I'm saying is Obama should not get off the hook either if it's found that the government bumbled the response time on this as well.

Except for the fact that none of that is accurate, it makes perfect sense.
In Katrina, no one was lying (mistaken, to be kind) to the government about the extent of the disaster or saying that they had it covered. The moment more accurate information arrived, the government called for "all hands on deck" and responded with everything at their disposal.
If you recall, the first week of the spill, BP first said no oil was leaking. Then they said it was a relatively small 1000 barrels a day and they had it under control.
Hurricane Katrina was a major storm for which the government had several days to a week's warning BEFORE it happened. The oil spill was a man made disaster that came with no warning, after the corporation said such a thing was virtually impossible.
Oh yeah, nearly 2000 people died in Katrina also. Aside from the 11 oil workers killed in the explosion (alright, that MUST have been Obama's fault), there have as yet been no injuries or deaths.
Now go back to Sean's website and see if he accounts for any of that.

And just to be pissy, why are MY tax dollars going to clean up this spill? This is no natural disaster that endangers citizens. This is a corporate mistake (accident to be kind). Why don't they clean it up? Surely if you are in that industry you know the risks involved and are prepared to deal with them. I don't live anywhere near it. Does anyone get the irony of Bobby Jindal (sp?) asking for Federal dollars to help clean up his state.

[AmpedNow]

I'm not on board the Hannity bandwagon on this issue. We all know where he stands on anything having to do with Obama.

I'm just saying that if it should come out that the government was slow to respond, then some of that BP bashing should be spread around.

Just like that Obama money.

[Bob Campbell]

Here's an interesting question about off shore drilling.
One of the big points in favor is reducing our dependence on foreign oil.
But... there is no provision in any regulation that makes the offshore oil go to us. The oil from the sunken BP rig is just as foreign as oil drilled in the Saudi desert. It belongs to BP, a foreign company and is sold on the international market, at market prices. There is no guarantee that ANY of the oil drilled offshore will make its way to American supplies.
So how does offshore drilling help us reduce our dependence on foreign oil?

[genlock]

By reducing world oil prices via supply and demand.

Econ 101

[Bob Campbell]

By reducing world oil prices via supply and demand.

Econ 101

That does not answer the question. The question is , how does offshore drilling reduce our dependence on foreign oil when it goes on the international market?
A lower price does nothing to reduce our dependence on foreign supplies. Our money still goes to the foreign corporations.

Logic 101

[genlock]

The government can reduce dependence on oil by increasing taxes.
Also by taxing vehicles over a certain gvw.
Maybe by taxing vehicles with high mpg.
Perhaps the best way is to stop using fuel oil to generate electricity and heat homes.
Coal or nuclear would be preferable.
Next start running cars on methane. I have had a methane car and it worked fine.
Even the best solutions will take decades to implement fully.
So we need something to develop mobile power in the interim. Oil.

[AmpedNow]

Gasoline prices are up 14 cents in just the last week, to $2.98 locally.

Some are predicting $5 per gallon by July, if this leak isn't controlled soon. Due to one out of control oil rig. This is how volatile oil prices still are.

There are quite a few oil rigs operating in the Gulf. Take them all offline all at once, thousands are out of work from Texas to Florida. Gasoline goes well above $5 per gallon.

Also, if offshore oil production is abruptly stopped, how long would it take to safely dismantle these oil rigs? We're still left with hundreds of holes burrowed in these massive underground oil pits. What's the guarantee that one of these "plugs" won't spring a leak?

How do these rigs operating lessen our dependence?

1. When oil is cheap, it's easier for us to add to our reserves. This makes it easier to counteract OPEC if their prices skyrocket. Clinton tried that in 2000 to combat that outrageous $1.75 per gallon gas. (What a difference ten years makes...)

2. BP is not a Middle Eastern company. The government could buy reserves directly from the company, bypassing the Middle East all together.

3. In the current oil market, leverage is everything. It makes no sense to voluntarily take all of these rigs offline while other countries will continue to drill everywhere they can. Where are we planning to make up the difference? Are we willing to allow our working people and the economy to suffer in order to find this elusive environmental "high road", that is still decades away?

Again, I'm not minimizing the severity of this oil spill... But these kind of accidents, where everything that could go wrong did go wrong, are very rare.

Banning all offshore drilling just because of this one accident is really overreacting.

[cgarison]

Some are predicting $5 per gallon by July, if this leak isn't controlled soon. Due to one out of control oil rig. This is how volatile oil prices still are.

There are quite a few oil rigs operating in the Gulf. Take them all offline all at once, thousands are out of work from Texas to Florida. Gasoline goes well above $5 per gallon.

The price increase of gasoline is not related to the the leaking oil in the Gulf of Mexico. If the supply of gasoline was that tight, then there would not be three shuttered refineries within 50 miles of Philadelphia.

Also, we will never see gasoline under $2.00/gallon because of the latest round of minimum wage increases. Paying people more money to work means we have to pay more money for the goods that we buy.