Country stars against MTR

[Bob Campbell]

I'm not Nomad. I thought Larry Shockley was.

The Catholic Church didn't represent science at all. The thing about science is that, even though it sometimes takes a while ( not nearly as long as many may think even in Galileo's case), the facts always win out. Verifiable, repeatable observation and experimentation. That's what science is. All the verifiable, repeatable observation and experimentation on global climate change says we're getting warmer, we're getting warmer at a faster rate and humanity is most responsible for at least a part of it, particularly the rate of growth of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

I can prove most of you deniers don't believe in science with one question; How old is the universe?

[Lester]

I'm gonna take a WAG at about 10 billion years old...

Then again, the only one that can really answer that doesn't (directly) speak back to me when I pray to him.

[genlock]

I'm not Nomad. I thought Larry Shockley was.
I can prove most of you deniers don't believe in science with one question; How old is the universe?

It really depend on if you are talking Newton's Physics or Einstein's physics.
Newtonian says something like 6 Billion years.
Einstein would say that it depends on your point of reference. Space-time.
To someone traveling at 99.99999% of the speed of light, the universe would seem maybe 6,000 years old.
If there were such a person/entity traveling that speed, what would that person say to your question.
If you say that nothing can go at that speed, consider gravity waves. Consider Neutrinos.

One day, James Clerk Maxwell was sitting around with nothing to do but divide basic constants with each other to find out
what the answer would be. (pre ESPN) He divided the electrical constant by the magnetic constant and came out with
3 times 10 to the 16 power Meters squared per second squared, the square of a speed.
What speed? The speed of light. At that point the electrical force and the magnetic force were related.
When you bring up Physics, we may be only one step away from the Higgs Boson that may give insight
into gravitation and its relation to the other forces (E/M, weak and strong atomic). It might be as momentous
as Maxwell's find, It may not. But if you want to talk time, remember that it is not a constant.
It used to be a sure thing. Now we think that the speed of light is a constant (last 100 years or so).
When/if we find the Higgs, It may not be a constant. To be so sure in science is to be a fool.

[fearpeddler]

not to mention the majority of scientific theories are just that.... theories... as technology evolves we slowly learn where we were right and wrong.... then science becomes fact.... till then its still theory....

[Jet Black]

I agree with GL & FP. You are a fool if you think you can pinpoint something like the age of the universe with the science we have now, which is very interesteing and detailed, yet is only proven with what is mainly conjecture. Heck, nobody can yet prove or disprove Einstein's theories, which is why they are not called Einstein's Laws. Even things like carbon dating that so much archeology is based upon, seem pretty shakey to me. I say, Bobmad, science is for understanding, not for brickbatting people. But if you want to brickbat people with science, you had danged well be a lot smarter than your victims, which in this case, you don't seem to be.

Green Emergencies That Have Come And Gone SInce I Was A Little Kid
Running out of gasoline
Running out of water
Running out of space for garbage
DDT killing all water critters
Acid Rain
Holes in the Ozone Layer
Greenhouse Effect - New Ice Age
All Frogs Dying
All Whales Dying
Various Overhyped Endangered Species scares
Pop Rocks & Coke Blow Up Stomachs

OK, that last one is a little off-base. But I mention these all by way of saying, when it comes to Rolling Stone "Science," I'm a little incredulous, to say the least. I get down on my kness and pray... We don't get fooled again.

[genlock]

Just a few years ago these same science types were worried about a new ice age or nuclear winter.
They even wanted the US or the UN to cover the polar ice caps with carbon black (soot) to hold the suns heat.
Thankfully cooler heads prevailed and we did not do this stupid thing.
The extremists then did not see a way to get rich over the whole thing.
Every night on the news is a new threat that will kill us all (or at least our children).
That is to keep us scared and watching the news to see how many are killed in the exploding GM pickups.
Remember them? NBC news faked a test and used a remote control bomb to detonate the gas tank.
They got caught. TV news should be watched with full knowledge that they have lied to us and are
still doing so. They are there to sell shampoo, not tell us the truth.

[Bob Campbell]

You can operate on Newtonian physics, but that would be like operating on Ptolemaic astronomy. Both good theories for their time, but not reliable now. Though Newtonian physics does work as a close approximation of reality on a local basis.
Einstein's theories deal with gravitation and while explaining many aspects of the physical universe, don't speak directly to the age. We knew the speed of light before Einstein, and the background radiation that proves the Big Bang theory was not really connected to anything by Einstein.
Sorry Jet, but the science we have now gives us a very good idea of the age of the universe at about 15 billion years. No, we don't have it down to the precise second, but we have a pretty darn good idea of it, and how it happened.
One of the great fallacies of those who deny science is tossing around the phrase "it's only a theory" as if that means something isn't factual.
Einstein's "Theory" of relativity has been proved over and over since he postulated it in the early 20th century. But it's still called a theory. It's factual. Still, should some repeatable observational experiment ever come along to disprove it, the thinking will change. No theory in the history of science has ever faced more scrutiny than Relativity and it has stood up to every challenge.

Green Emergencies That Have Come And Gone SInce I Was A Little Kid
Running out of gasoline we are. You think somebody's making more oil somewhere?
Running out of water Never heard that one. Running out of potable water, yes.
Running out of space for garbage Did you find somewhere new to put it?
DDT killing all water critters Right, how did it stop from killing them? We stopped using it.
Acid Rain Has destroyed millions of tree
Holes in the Ozone Layer Do you deny they exist? Wow.
Greenhouse Effect - New Ice Age One possible effect of global warming. Counter intuitive yes, but a definite possibility
All Frogs Dying Not all, but a significant amount
All Whales Dying Over hunting nearly wiped out many species. Why they're not, we stopped hunting them, most countries.
Various Overhyped Endangered Species scares Name one please.
Pop Rocks & Coke Blow Up Stomachs Can't argue with this one, you're right on the money.

One out of 13, and the one is for fun. Don't try making it to the majors with that batting average.

[Bob Campbell]

Just a few years ago these same science types were worried about a new ice age or nuclear winter.
They even wanted the US or the UN to cover the polar ice caps with carbon black (soot) to hold the suns heat.
Thankfully cooler heads prevailed and we did not do this stupid thing.
The extremists then did not see a way to get rich over the whole thing.
Every night on the news is a new threat that will kill us all (or at least our children).
That is to keep us scared and watching the news to see how many are killed in the exploding GM pickups.
Remember them? NBC news faked a test and used a remote control bomb to detonate the gas tank.
They got caught. TV news should be watched with full knowledge that they have lied to us and are
still doing so. They are there to sell shampoo, not tell us the truth.

Interesting words. Especially the "every night on the news is a new threat" line.
Like Islamic terrorism. WMD in Iraq. The Axis of Evil. North Korea. Iran. Immigration.
The only thing I live in fear of are not being a good father to my child, nor a reliable friend or a supportive lover.

The interesting thing about global warming, whichever side you're on.
It's real or it's not.
If it's real we damn sure better do something about it if we can.
If we don't we're screwed.
If we do somthing about it and it's real, we quite literally save humanity.
If we do something about it and it's not real, we create millions of jobs in new high tech industries and improve the environment of the planet, making it a better place for our children and descendants.
Win Win.
The only way we lose is ignoring it.
By the way, sea levels have risen an inch in the last decade according to the latest report from the UN. I know we can't trust them, because they're one of those organisations that thinks nations should work together. And we know that's always dangerous.

[genlock]

So you admit that an outside "observer" traveling at a very high percentage of the speed of light
would observe an age of the universe from 6 to maybe 15 thousand years or so? You can do the math
(The Fitzgerald-lorentz equations) to determine the percentage of the speed of light necessary
to produce results of 15 billion years and whatever the biblical scholars say. It would be 99% with
a bunch of 9's beyond that. Fast, but not past the speed limit.

Pick another argument.

[genlock]

Global warming is a scam to shift economies, power and wealth.
To use a movie quote, "In confusion, there is profit".
Never more true here.

[fearpeddler]

By the way, sea levels have risen an inch in the last decade according to the latest report from the UN. I know we can't trust them, because they're one of those organisations that thinks nations should work together. And we know that's always dangerous.

umm, thats called erosion, naturally occurs wherever water is flowing....

btw... still waiting on that flying car or jetpack to get me from place to place.... damn science had to stop those projects for the crap we're arguing about now........

*addon* btw, genlock is right, we at the news pride ourselves in keeping you distracted from what you actually should be worrying about in the world, and we'll keep doing it till people quit watching us and demand real journalism on their news programs.....

[Jet Black]

He he, Bobmad, if you don't see the humor in your own response, there's no need in me commenting further.

Until a few years ago, we couldn't even be sure there were planets outside our solar system, yet we can figure with a reasonable amount of certainty how old the universe is and how it started. What a hoot. I'm all for the investigation of such things, but I get a perverse kick out of meatheads who are militant about the tenative results.

Hey, Genlock! Hey Fearpeddler!

[fearpeddler]

honestly, if I didnt have the meds to control my temper I'd be giving more to alot of discussions I take part in, but the fog they keep me in has me running at about 50% power intead of full bore.... believe it or not i'm actually quite intelligent...

[genlock]

The industry is depressed, just like it's employees.

[Lester]

All Frogs Dying Not all, but a significant amount
All Whales Dying Over hunting nearly wiped out many species. Why they're not, we stopped hunting them, most countries.
Various Overhyped Endangered Species scares Name one please.

So, are humans also responsible for the millions of species that went extinct prior to the existence of humans? It's called "evolution", and I highly suspect that a beautiful example of it at work is the Panda. It's trying to go extinct, and man keeps interfering.

[Bob Campbell]

He he, Bobmad, if you don't see the humor in your own response, there's no need in me commenting further.

Until a few years ago, we couldn't even be sure there were planets outside our solar system, yet we can figure with a reasonable amount of certainty how old the universe is and how it started. What a hoot. I'm all for the investigation of such things, but I get a perverse kick out of meatheads who are militant about the tenative results.

Hey, Genlock! Hey Fearpeddler!

You didn't do too well in science did you? The existence of planets outside our solar system is irrelevant to the question of the age of the universe. The results for the age of the universe are far from tentative. Unless of course you also consider the results of the equation "2 plus 2 equals 4" to also be tentative. But please, if you have evidence to disprove Einstein's equations, publish immediately. You'll be rich and famous and you'll completely change the way we live. Of course, you'll have to give up things like cell phones, satellites, space travel and most all modern electronics because they all operate under Einstein's laws. It might not be too bad with no nuclear weapons though.

Gen, your "outside observer" line is interesting, but of course, we can't travel that fast, so it's meaningless. I'm not sure what your point is. Actually, you would still see the outside universe as being 15 billion years old, while you're local passage of time would be 6 to 15 thousand years. You'r speed would distort time only for you, not those objects not traveling that fast.
This is shown every time the space shuttle flies and their clocks must be constantly adjusted by micro seconds to be in synch with earth bound clocks. Same thing with GPS satellites. Without constant adjustment for their slowed time rate due to their high speed, accurate positioning would be impossible.

FP, if erosion caused the sea levels to rise, we'd all be under water. Cute, but not related to the real world at all. Erosion has no effect on water levels. It does effect the land that erodes.

You can lock this one up now Lester, all the facts are on my side.
And feel free to reveal that I'm not Nomad.

[Lester]

He's not Nomad... I was hoping that would clear itself up on its own.

That's all you get though... I'm all for scientific debate.

[fearpeddler]

is it the power of all the hopey changey crap keeping us from drowning?

what i'm saying is basically the loss of land mass at a faster than normal rate can make it seem like the oceans are rising super fast, I dont doubt the levels are going up, they should go up as the polar ice caps continue to melt, but thats only because they're supposed to melt... we are still coming out of an ice age....

[genlock]

Plate tectonics would cause apparent rise or fall of ocean vs. land levels.

"but of course, we can't travel that fast, so it's meaningless."
We could be a lot of things. Could be us, could be something else.
Think about that.
And the speed is differential, not absolute.
Up to speed of light, of course.

We have not mentioned string theory and dimensions yet.
It is a whole another worlds. Up to 11, so far.

[Jet Black]

What a pointless argument this has turned out to be.