Another Obama Milestone

[Lester]

No, but he is a card carrying member of the (still angry) left... and he has a pretty good sized bully pulpit.

And no one has answered my question: Was President Obama taking part in a cultural greeting, or was he bowing subserviently to a foreign leader? Simple question that SOMEONE should be able to give a factual answer to... in short, did the emperor bow back?

[Hoosier Daddy]

I understand that, as a Union functionary, you are comfortable with kow-towing to your superiors, bowing down to authority, cowering before the awsome powers ...

But ... wait ... I thought those nasty union people always defied authority, wanting work contracts instead of the boss's promise, threatenening to strike when negotiations stalled or when superiors tried to pull some unlawful shit they shouldn't be doing ... I thought YOUSE GUYS were the management brown-nosers, always kow-towing to your superiors, quietly taking whatever they gave you (even if it was in the poop chute), working without benefits or retirement (and hating union people who have those things), bowing down to authority and all ...

"Free Americans". Wow. I guess in your dictionary, that term only applies to over-the-edge right wing teabagger nutjobs who watch FOX 24/7 and think NewsMax, Bill O'Reilly, and the Wall Street Journal are living examples of unbiased journalism.

[Jet Black]

Nope.

Yep.

[Jay Nunley]

O.K. I'll bite. I like this one. I want to see where the debate ends up going.

Let's go with the assumption that it was a totally subservient bow that was not returned by Emperor Akihito. Let's also assume it was the wrong kind of bow or whatever. In addition, let's assume this is something that makes The United States Of America weaker and will inevitably lead to our national demise.

With those assumptions (which have already been stated as fact or alluded to in this thread) I ask the following questions...

Why would President Obama put himself and the country forth as subservient to the Japanese?

Why didn't President Nixon bowing to Emperor Hirohito (you know, the guy who ruled Japan when they attacked us at Pearl Harbor) destroy us?

Why didn't President G.W. Bush holding hands with the Saudis destroy us?

Why didn't President G.H.W. Bush puking all over the place in front of the Japanese destroy us?

Why didn't President G.W. Bush's attempted shoulder rub destroy us?

Why didn't President Clinton's botched bow/handshake with Akihito destroy us?

Oh, and one more question, if you don't mind. It has nothing to do with the other questions.

Why aren't you guys up in arms about all the criticism and jokes about President Obama in general and his war policies specifically? A few years ago you were literally calling such criticism treason.

[Bob Campbell]

I think you already know the answer to that one Jay.
You forgot McArthur bowing to Hirohito also. I think that's the one that really sent us down the road to ruin.

[Lester]

Why aren't you guys up in arms about all the criticism and jokes about President Obama in general and his war policies specifically? A few years ago you were literally calling such criticism treason.

I didn't.

And I'm enjoying it for the hypocrisy that it is... Dissent was "patriotic" just a year ago... now it's racism.

[genlock]

I can't imagine MacArthur bowing to Hirohito. Or anybody. Ever.

[Bob Campbell]

It is the traditional greeting and sign of respect in Japanese culture and McArthur always showed great respect for the Japanese. He is regarded as almost a hero by the Japanese even today.

[Jet Black]

Jay, don't extrapolate my digust into a claim that bow-gate will lead to the demise of this etc. etc. If I have to spell it out, all I'll say is this international faux pas (apparently the Japanese didn't like this stuff either; and no, the Emperor did not bow, as of course Emperors are not wont to do,) is but an outward and visible indicator of Obama's wrongheaded approach to dealing with foreign leaders, his very visible and arbitrary respect for the leaders of some nations and disdain for others (no bow for the Queen of England, here's an ipod for ya, hun,) and most importantly, a visible indicator IMHO of Obama's lack of interest in American Exceptionalism (as the term seems now to be) and our position in the world as both sovereign nation and world superpower for good. Yeah, that's reading a lot into it, I'll admit; but all in all, it's just another brick in the wall.

Obama has been in office for a year now, and already we have a folder-file of shameful incidents: Obama returns gifts from the British Ambassador; Snubs the Queen of England, our greastest ally; Bows to the Saudi Prince; Bows to the Emperor of Japan; Stands on foreign shores on several occasions and -GASP!- Appologizes... APPOLOGIZES for American ills that at least half of all Americans feel are more imagined than real. No sir, no sir... I can't stomach this string of slaps in the face to Americans over cry-baby complaints of Europeans and third-worlders who are only alive today because of money taxed off the backs of American Citizens, are only running their own countries because gallons and gallons of American blood was spilled to liberate them or protect them, are operating on the technology and consumer goods that sprang from free American thinking and industry. But Obama doesn't say that, he bows and appologizes to foreign royalty and seems to say, see here now, America is ready to quit being America in the world, and to become a country that no one expects much from and can once again be pushed around by whatever isms you-all see fit. Well, I say No Sir. Ain't gonna fly. And yes, there are a lot like me, and we are getting madder and madder.

I'll say this. Some like Bob Nomad or Hoosier think this is the beginning of the new era. But Obama is trying to get things done fast now because he knows nobody will go for this stuff if there is too much time for us to think about it. Obama better hope he is wildly successful, because the way I think, 2012 is going to not only see the ObaMao machine thrown out, but avoidance of another round of Marxist experimentation will become a cause celebre with voters and politicians on BOTH sides of the aisle.

[genlock]

It is the traditional greeting and sign of respect in Japanese culture and McArthur always showed great respect for the Japanese. He is regarded as almost a hero by the Japanese even today.

He wrote their constitution and allowed the emperor to live.
MacArthur built the Japanese nation as it is today.
He is regarded by Japan as a national hero.

[Jay Nunley]

And I'm enjoying it for the hypocrisy that it is... Dissent was "patriotic" just a year ago... now it's racism.

Are you referring to the Jimmy Carter thing or the usual claim of racism from the usual suspects?

[Jay Nunley]

Jay, don't extrapolate my digust into a claim that bow-gate will lead to the demise of this etc. etc. If I have to spell it out, all I'll say is this international faux pas (apparently the Japanese didn't like this stuff either; and no, the Emperor did not bow, as of course Emperors are not wont to do,) is but an outward and visible indicator of Obama's wrongheaded approach to dealing with foreign leaders, his very visible and arbitrary respect for the leaders of some nations and disdain for others (no bow for the Queen of England, here's an ipod for ya, hun,) and most importantly, a visible indicator IMHO of Obama's lack of interest in American Exceptionalism (as the term seems now to be) and our position in the world as both sovereign nation and world superpower for good. Yeah, that's reading a lot into it, I'll admit; but all in all, it's just another brick in the wall.

Obama has been in office for a year now, and already we have a folder-file of shameful incidents: Obama returns gifts from the British Ambassador; Snubs the Queen of England, our greastest ally; Bows to the Saudi Prince; Bows to the Emperor of Japan; Stands on foreign shores on several occasions and -GASP!- Appologizes... APPOLOGIZES for American ills that at least half of all Americans feel are more imagined than real. No sir, no sir... I can't stomach this string of slaps in the face to Americans over cry-baby complaints of Europeans and third-worlders who are only alive today because of money taxed off the backs of American Citizens, are only running their own countries because gallons and gallons of American blood was spilled to liberate them or protect them, are operating on the technology and consumer goods that sprang from free American thinking and industry. But Obama doesn't say that, he bows and appologizes to foreign royalty and seems to say, see here now, America is ready to quit being America in the world, and to become a country that no one expects much from and can once again be pushed around by whatever isms you-all see fit. Well, I say No Sir. Ain't gonna fly. And yes, there are a lot like me, and we are getting madder and madder.

I'll say this. Some like Bob Nomad or Hoosier think this is the beginning of the new era. But Obama is trying to get things done fast now because he knows nobody will go for this stuff if there is too much time for us to think about it. Obama better hope he is wildly successful, because the way I think, 2012 is going to not only see the ObaMao machine thrown out, but avoidance of another round of Marxist experimentation will become a cause celebre with voters and politicians on BOTH sides of the aisle.

O.K. I understand you more now. However, I disagree with your characterization of what President Obama has said and why he said them. I also disagreed with numerous characterization of things President Bush said on the international stage and why he said them. President Obama is no more an apologist or appeaser than President Bush was arrogant and undiplomatic. The left disliked and dismissed President Bush from the get go and they based their evaluation of every single thing he did from that angle and only that angle. The right is doing the same thing now, but to a much greater degree (which I didn't think was possible). I know many conservatives don't see this in themselves. I honestly don't know how it happened. Maybe it is years of the choir preaching to themselves constantly and without end to the point where the perception of things is so skewed it is impossible to get anything near logic or reason. Look, I am no expert on any of this, nor am I very smart, but what I see from the right wing now is beyond ridiculous. It is cartoonish in nature. I'm not naive. I know that political discourse in this country became blind cheerleading a long time ago. I have two concerns. The first is meaningful. Too many damaging things are allowed to happen and too many good things are prevented from happening for no other reason than people adhering to whatever political indentity they hold instead of what is right, smart, and productive. The second concern is meaningless. Talk radio and Talk TV used to be something I enjoyed. Now it is unlistenable and unwatchable. What's the next step with all of this? Rush Limbaugh or Dennis Prager wailing that the end is near because President Obama sneezed and somehow extrapolating that sneeze into a signal that the president is weak, stupid, and/or seeking to destroy us all because he hates America? If that seems ridiculous, well it is, but what I'm hearing from the right wing media is already that ridiculous. Not that it makes any difference at all, but all this does for me is guarantee I won't take much of anything a conservative says seriously. This is only troublesome because on many issues and in many instances they are right.

[Bob Campbell]

Get to the point Jay. Does this mean Bush holding hands for a half hour with the Saudi Arabian prince means he's gay?

[Jet Black]

Seriously curious, Jay, and respectfully asked: What in particular do you find coming now from the Conservative Press (let's call 'em for the sake of argument) that you find so odious and silly? You're a reasonable cat, I'm curious to find out what a reasonable self-proclaimed left-winger finds so incorrect.

[AmpedNow]

One of the tragedies of modern-day politics is that everything is seen from a hyper-partisan, left wing/right wing paradigm and if you're not all in on either side, then you're an enemy who must be destroyed. No room for debates.

There's a sizable chunk of us indies who sit in the middle and hate everyone by default. Of course, we're hated by both sides as well because we can't be pigeonholed into a particular mold. Where is someone like me who tends to be conservative in matters of economic, military, and foreign policy, but tends to be liberal in social issues supposed to go? We are the true misfits of the current political world.

Hate all you want, but remember who holds the power in national elections... Neither party can win without us. Everyone wants our votes, but nobody wants to listen to us.

Obama is losing independents in droves because he seems intent on governing from the hard left, where the only compromise is us agreeing with him 100%. One cannot successfully govern from either extreme because you won't have the majority of the people behind you. And, as Obama is finding out, it doesn't take long to squander their good will.

Amazingly, even if Obama's approval ratings drop to Bush levels, it's not going to matter one bit to him. I think he is a hard line leftist who would gladly sacrifice a second term over enacting his two pet policies: health care and cap & trade, because if they pass he will have succeeded in fundamentally changing this country for good. If it means being enshrined as the FDR of the 21st century, then so be it.

As for 2012, it's becoming appearant that the republicans will have to field a dark horse candidate who has yet to emerge from the shadows. The current crop that everyone is paying attention to just isn't going to make the final cut. Palin will not survive the media pounding for another three years. Huckabee doesn't have mass appeal. Newt is too establishment. And Romney is too rich...and Mormon.

However, if the country stays on its current trajectory (unlikely), there may be a large ABO (anyone but Obama) movement by then.

[Hoosier Daddy]

One of the tragedies of modern-day politics is that everything is seen from a hyper-partisan, left wing/right wing paradigm and if you're not all in on either side, then you're an enemy who must be destroyed. No room for debates.

There's a sizable chunk of us indies who sit in the middle and hate everyone by default. Of course, we're hated by both sides as well because we can't be pigeonholed into a particular mold. Where is someone like me who tends to be conservative in matters of economic, military, and foreign policy, but tends to be liberal in social issues supposed to go? We are the true misfits of the current political world.

Hate all you want, but remember who holds the power in national elections... Neither party can win without us. Everyone wants our votes, but nobody wants to listen to us.

Obama is losing independents in droves because he seems intent on governing from the hard left, where the only compromise is us agreeing with him 100%. One cannot successfully govern from either extreme because you won't have the majority of the people behind you. And, as Obama is finding out, it doesn't take long to squander their good will.

Amazingly, even if Obama's approval ratings drop to Bush levels, it's not going to matter one bit to him. I think he is a hard line leftist who would gladly sacrifice a second term over enacting his two pet policies: health care and cap & trade, because if they pass he will have succeeded in fundamentally changing this country for good. If it means being enshrined as the FDR of the 21st century, then so be it.

As for 2012, it's becoming appearant that the republicans will have to field a dark horse candidate who has yet to emerge from the shadows. The current crop that everyone is paying attention to just isn't going to make the final cut. Palin will not survive the media pounding for another three years. Huckabee doesn't have mass appeal. Newt is too establishment. And Romney is too rich...and Mormon.

However, if the country stays on its current trajectory (unlikely), there may be a large ABO (anyone but Obama) movement by then.

Amped,

Thank you for offering up a reasonable discussion. I certainly agree with you about the middle of the road indies. Although a few members of this message board would disagree, I am a moderate with a mixture of traditionally liberal and conservative beliefs. There is something lost in trying to post your thoughts online. A pitcher or four of beer and a couple of pizzas provides a much better backdrop for discussing the issues of the day. Or maybe some of those Yann's hot dogs I keep hearing about, along with a gallon or two of chololate milk.

I disagree about your take on Obama. The hard left doesn't think he's liberal enough, and that is part of what is costing him a slow drain in popularity. Obama seems to be more of a deep thinker; watching, listening, taking it all in and mulling it over before making a decision. And that decision is likely to be some sort of a workable compromise between Democrats and Republicans, rather than an immediate hard left turn on every issue. The GOP and the FOXies relentlessly try to paint a very frightening and polarizing picture of Obama being a poster child for Marxism, Socialism, Leninism, Communism, et al -- but I just don't see it. Hillary Clinton is much more of a "leftie" than Obama, and much more than husband Bill was. Right now, I just wish Obama would grow a pair of balls and fight back against some of the assholes who keep trying to tear him down.

As to your FDR comment, please remember FDR saved the country. He was the right man at the right time (ditto Washington, Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Kennedy, and Reagan) and his resolve gave this country hope at one of our darkest moments.

I'd like to see a strong Republican candidate in 2012. Someone who is morally sound, fiscally conservative, strong on the military without being hawkish, but open to basic issues on human rights, the need to fix our health care system (and that goes well beyond busting the insurance companies' stronghold on the money in health care), and creating environmental policy that is both reasonable and effective. Someone who respects the awesomeness of capitalism but understands the abuses that can occur with unfettered runaway corporate greed and can find sensible middle ground.

The present collection of hate filled Republican fear-mongering, ultra-religious, anti-abortion, gun nut/war nut/I hate everyone but white people zealots is a huge turn off for me. The GOP has spent the last two years excluding people instead of making the tent bigger -- a dangerous tactic when you're already in the minority.

[Jay Nunley]

For Jet...

I'll skip the really stupid stuff like President Obama is not a citizen or President Obama is a muslim terrorist sleeper agent. Even the most hard right conservatives couldn't swallow that insanity (I hope).

I'll get into a general thing and then give a few specifics.

Keep in mind this is limited to the right wing noisemakers I personally have consumed and most of it is radio. This includes Rush Limbaugh, Laura Ingraham, Sean Hannity, Michael Savage, Mike McConnell, Glenn Beck, some TV like Bill O'Reilly, and a few writers like Ann Coulter, Phyllis Schlafly, Larry Kudlow, and etc.

In general, no matter what the action or subject, it is twisted, obfuscated, branded, and extrapolated, into a mistake, ill intent, or ego servicing on President Obama's part. Then it is blown so far out of proportion that it becomes two steps past a ridiculous farce and one step before some kind of obsessive disorder.

I'm assuming four specific examples of this phenomenon will be enough.

The stupid notion that it was a degradation of the country and the office of The President of The United States to try to get the olympics for Chicago. In addition, Chicago not getting the olympics was a huge blow to the country, made us look weak, and emboldened our enemies. My only reaction to this is, "Dudes."

The completely erroneous scare tactics employed on the subject of national health care. The best example is Death Panels. Glenn Beck (whom I liked until TV ruined him) was the first one I heard talk about this and I honestly thought he was doing one of his quasi-comedy bits.

President Obama said we don't want to force our values, beliefs, and systems onto other countries and opined the previous administation's foreign policy was flawed. The right twisted this into President Obama committing treason, giving aid and comfort to our enemies, an attack on The United States, and an insult to the military and veterans.

The fourth example is what I'll call "extreme localism." That picture of Michelle Obama that Mike Blair posted and then turned that into the First Lady being jealous of the french First Lady or whatever they call it and any number of other character flaws and mindsets that cannot possibly be gleaned from a snapshot, no matter how bad that snapshot is.

Finally, there are numerous constant themes.

President Obama is a communist.

President Obama is a marxist.

President Obama hates America.

President Obama disdains traditional American values (whatever those are).

President Obama hates the military.

President Obama is deliberately suppressing an economic rebound to make people more dependent on government.

President Obama is only concerned with his own ego and public image.

President Obama is nothing but a good teleprompter reader.

President Obama has sinister intent with, well, EVERYTHING he does.

That should be enough of the constant drumbeat stuff. All of those are ridiculous, but are stated as unassailable fact and repeated ad nauseum all day, every day.

[Ace Purple]

All of those are ridiculous, but are stated as unassailable fact and repeated ad nauseum all day, every day.

As usual, I find myself agreeing with Jay.

[Jay Nunley]

It occured to me that I should add two things.

I answer with respect and friendship (much the same way Jet asked).

I don't think the freedom to say and think all those things should be abridged in any fashion. It just drowns out any credible things those people have to say (if there are some of those anymore) and it just makes it impossible for me to listen, watch, and read for the same exact reason I can't listen to CHR/AC stations. Every time I tune in it is a bad song that I have already heard twenty thousand times.

[Lester]

And there is nothing in your (extremely well written) post that didn't happen IN TRIPLICATE under the previous administration.

Sorry, but the Republicans watched 8 years of liberal whining, bitching, and crying turn into a presidential win for the liberals... so they stole the playbook.

The liberals aren't doing themselves ANY favors in this regard by failing to notice that the Republicans lost (why does Palin keep getting press?), that independent voters supported Obama (but didn't drink the Kool-Aid, therefore they expect results), and that years of "Clinton's success had nothing to do with Bush '41", and "Bush '43 was totally responsible for 9-11" from the left has destroyed ANY hope they have (with reasonable Americans) of blaming where we are today on the President that's now gone.