ATTN Scott Reppert!!

[Lee]

Just wanted to let you know you have a Monkees avatar.

Ya know...thought I'd point that out.

*cough*

[Scott Reppert]

Okay, here's how I see it: from "I Want To Hold Your Hand" through "Paperback Writer"/"Rain", The Beatles were unquestionably the greatest rock and roll band known to mankind through that period. But following "Paperback Writer"'s release in 1966, The Monkees debuted with "Last Train To Clarksville" and their TV show and The Velvet Underground saw the national release of their first LP, "The Velvet Underground And Nico". Now what I see happening at this point is, The Monkees took over The Beatles reign as a pop phenomenon, while The Velvet Underground did "heavier" and more "progressive" rock better than The Beatles did (of course I consider "Sergeant Pepper's..." as The Beatles worst album).

Thus, from late 1966-early 1967, you basically do not need The Beatles (except for the occasional song here and there), and you have The Monkees ruling the Billboard charts and The Velvet Underground making the first round of rock and roll that significantly changed what The Beatles had first brought forth. Giving the edge to the fact that The Monkees had a weekly TV show and made movies, that is why I consider them "the greatest rock and roll band ever".

And that's why I have a Monkees avatar.

Plus, Spike would agree with me...

[Big Media]

Where the hell is Spike! these days?

[Hoosier Daddy]

I thought The Monkees were like The Archies. A fake band made for TV using generic recording studio singers.

[Lee]

Okay, here's how I see it: from "I Want To Hold Your Hand" through "Paperback Writer"/"Rain", The Beatles were unquestionably the greatest rock and roll band known to mankind through that period. But following "Paperback Writer"'s release in 1966, The Monkees debuted with "Last Train To Clarksville" and their TV show and The Velvet Underground saw the national release of their first LP, "The Velvet Underground And Nico". Now what I see happening at this point is, The Monkees took over The Beatles reign as a pop phenomenon, while The Velvet Underground did "heavier" and more "progressive" rock better than The Beatles did (of course I consider "Sergeant Pepper's..." as The Beatles worst album).

Thus, from late 1966-early 1967, you basically do not need The Beatles (except for the occasional song here and there), and you have The Monkees ruling the Billboard charts and The Velvet Underground making the first round of rock and roll that significantly changed what The Beatles had first brought forth. Giving the edge to the fact that The Monkees had a weekly TV show and made movies, that is why I consider them "the greatest rock and roll band ever".

And that's why I have a Monkees avatar.

Plus, Spike would agree with me...

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEALLY????

You honestly think that anything the Monkees did was better than Rubber Soul or even The White Album??? True, The Velvet Underground was all sorts of awesome...but saying the Monkees were better than The Beatles??

As Nunley would say...."Dude."

[Scott Reppert]

"Rubber Soul" came before The Monkees, so that doesn't count. I put that in the "good Beatles pile".

Let's not get even into the obstacles that The Monkees had to face that other bands didn't, the main one being they had to BECOME a band without probably WANTING to become a band.

They birthed (mainly through Mike Nesmith) country rock.

They financed "Easy Rider" and bought the first set of equipment for Three Dog Night.

They brought Jimi Hendrix back to America.

Go deep enough and you will find Mike and Micky laying the actual groundwork for MTV...as far back as 1973, I believe. They are single-handedly responsible for saving MTV from going down the tubes in 1986.

What I'm saying is: The Monkees career blows away the POP half of The Beatles last years and the output of The Velvet Underground blows away the ALBUM ORIENTED half of The Beatles last years.

It's what I'm saying.

And if you ask me tomorrow, I'll still say it. Or a slightly modified version of the same thing, mainly with different times and temperatures...

[Hoosier Daddy]

I am fascinated with your knowledge of music, Scott.
And Fairmont Hot Dogs.

[Scott Reppert]

...And Fairmont Hot Dogs.

Well, that's the easy part because there's only ONE...

[Lester]

"Rubber Soul" came before The Monkees, so that doesn't count. I put that in the "good Beatles pile".

Let's not get even into the obstacles that The Monkees had to face that other bands didn't, the main one being they had to BECOME a band without probably WANTING to become a band.

They birthed (mainly through Mike Nesmith) country rock.

They financed "Easy Rider" and bought the first set of equipment for Three Dog Night.

They brought Jimi Hendrix back to America.

Go deep enough and you will find Mike and Micky laying the actual groundwork for MTV...as far back as 1973, I believe. They are single-handedly responsible for saving MTV from going down the tubes in 1986.

What I'm saying is: The Monkees career blows away the POP half of The Beatles last years and the output of The Velvet Underground blows away the ALBUM ORIENTED half of The Beatles last years.

It's what I'm saying.

And if you ask me tomorrow, I'll still say it. Or a slightly modified version of the same thing, mainly with different times and temperatures...

I bump this thread because it came up tonight in bar-time conversation, and because it is awesome.

[David Paleg]

I got to see The Monkees in concert here in Charleston about 25 or so years ago. Or at least 3/4 of them, since Mike Nesmith had left the group by then. The show also included The Grassroots and Gary Puckett and The Union Gap. Hermans Hermits without Peter Noon was also on the bill, but they canceled about a week before the show. It was still a great show.

[Lee]

I remember the Monkees getting exposure on MTV then but didn't know why. MTV sure could use something like that now. Thank God for VH1 Classic, though.

I agree with your statement about The Velvet Underground, the FIRST "alternative" group in my opinion.

[Bob Campbell]

I saw them in Detroit in '86. They had the hit "That was Then, This is Now". I recall a fun show, don't remember who may have opened.
Around here ( Greensboro) they're famous (infamous?) for playing the Greensboro Coliseum with Jimi Hendrix as the opening act. Except they wouldn't play after Hendrix, so the actually played first. I think the year was '67.

[Scott Reppert]

I got to watching a few Monkees clips last night and I came up with a couple of more tidbits:

1. Mike Nesmith wrote "Different Drum" for Linda Ronstadt and "Some Of Shelley's Blues" for the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band.

2. Gave the first big songwriting breaks to Neil Diamond ("A Little Bit Me, A Little Bit You"), Nilsson ("Cuddly Toy), Michael Murphy ("What Am I Doin' Hangin' 'Round?").

3. Gave first big movie breaks to both Dennis Hopper & Jack Nicholson (who also co-wrote and co-produced their movie, "Head" and also PRODUCED THE SOUNDTRACK ALBUM!

4. Four #1 albums and a #3 album within the span of a year and a half. Three of the #1's came within a ONE YEAR PERIOD!

5. And the main thing that I remembered last night: they owned one of the first three Moog synthesizers ever made...

[Bob Campbell]

In 2007 we were urging a letter writing (e-mail) campaign to get the Monkees in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Had Peter Tork on the show, whose manager, God knows why, lives in a Winston Salem suburb. Tork was a great interview and was in town playing with his band at the time.
He made some interesting points about the Monkees and the Rock Hall. Jan Wenner's ( who is the ultimate decider for the Hall) chief complaint about the Monkees was they didn't play their own instruments on the early albums or write many songs. We've all heard that story. But Peter brought up the fact that many of the bands of the 60's didn't play on their albums either. In fact , most of the LA bands used the same musicians who played on the Monkees albums (drummer Hal Blaine comes to mind at the moment). Mamas and the Papas, Byrds, and a lot of other LA bands had the music played by session musicians, especially on their early albums.
Peter believes the Monkees can't get in basically because of the band being put together for the tv show, never taking themselves seriously, etc.
They did make some really great pop music, with the writers mentioned earlier. Oh yeah, Tommy Boyce and Bobby Hart wrote some songs for them too.
And Don Kirshner was their original producer.
And of course, Frank Zappa was in the awesome "Head".

[nitchg]

In 2007 we were urging a letter writing (e-mail) campaign to get the Monkees in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Had Peter Tork on the show, whose manager, God knows why, lives in a Winston Salem suburb. Tork was a great interview and was in town playing with his band at the time.
He made some interesting points about the Monkees and the Rock Hall. Jan Wenner's ( who is the ultimate decider for the Hall) chief complaint about the Monkees was they didn't play their own instruments on the early albums or write many songs. We've all heard that story. But Peter brought up the fact that many of the bands of the 60's didn't play on their albums either. In fact , most of the LA bands used the same musicians who played on the Monkees albums (drummer Hal Blaine comes to mind at the moment). Mamas and the Papas, Byrds, and a lot of other LA bands had the music played by session musicians, especially on their early albums.
Peter believes the Monkees can't get in basically because of the band being put together for the tv show, never taking themselves seriously, etc.
They did make some really great pop music, with the writers mentioned earlier. Oh yeah, Tommy Boyce and Bobby Hart wrote some songs for them too.
And Don Kirshner was their original producer.
And of course, Frank Zappa was in the awesome "Head".

Bob Campbell has it right! Monkees were awesome but were a made up band promoted by the machine that can insert dog poop if it wanted ( and often does) and crank out hits. Here's how it works, the deep pockets who own an interest in some really bad ( or sometimes good) music want to squeeze ever last penny out of it. Take Last Kiss by Pearl Jam. That song was what...nearly 50 years old when Pearl Jam did it. it's a stupid song. OK it was appropriate for the 50s or early 60s, but sounded terrible in the 21st century version when Pearl Jam did it, but it was a "hit" and I use that word liberally. The original has feeling, and was probably written from personal experience about a real tragedy but Pearl Jam is just playing, yawn, yet another boring tune. Pop music is pumped out by the machine for the masses and rarely demands attention. I can think of exceptions, of course. But the reason other songs demand attention is because they say something relevant about the times and your personal emotional makeup. In other words, they ain't lyin. Pop music for the most part is background noise, like dinner music or elevator music, or supermarket music. But if you want to hear a frightening song about an accident, try DOA by Bloodrock. For my money that is the ultimate accident song. But that's just my opinion like Mr. Reppert's about the Monkees. I love the Velvet Underground. European Son says it to me. And Heroine is a real life experience by some in the Underground. I saw it first hand. I met Lou Reed at WVU in the 60s. He was hitting up. It blew my mind. After Andy Warhol, I lost interest in the Underground. I still like Lou Reed. Who else would have the balls and talent to make it funny and entertaining and non racist when saying, "And the coloured girls go Doo do doo do doo do do doo.."
The Monkees were not original. They had a green light and financing from the words Hey hey, we're the Monkees" ( as did nearly every other raw talent the big money wanted to promote). Janis Joplin, bless her heart, was accessable at first as were all the San Francisco bands. I remember her sitting in a doorway in the Haight. She offered one teen age runaway girl, new in town and scared, a drink. Said sit down, and pulled out a bottle. Janis was real. I mention her to make a point. After a while, you could not approach her or Big Brother unless you had already been in the clique before fame. It was security all the way once the big money got through with her. and the Airplane, and all the rest. Grateful Dead may be the exception, but then again, they rejected big money tactics. Come to think of it, Jim Morrison is said to be the only rock star that was still sleeping in his car even when he had a #1 hit. Talk about real. One of the reasons we love the Beatles is simple, underdogs. Thru Brian Epstein the Beatles, kicked and clawed, broke down the doors of the corporate giants until they were visible enough that we knew they were the greatest band ever. The Beatles were real and talented and had paid their dues. The Monkees simply stepped into a pre made slot. I can't take "Last train to Clarksville" seriously, I mean as a real life experience any of them ever had. It's a great song but it's imitation Beatles. The Beatles could have written it, but the Monkees or whoever wrote it could never write a Norwegian Wood. The Monkees and their writers couldn't have written anything remotely resembling the Beatles' songs unless they had a model to copy, which is what they did. Compare "we'll have coffee flavored kisses" to "marmalade skys...kaleidoscope eyes...rocking horse people eat marshmallow pies...picture yourself on a train in a station with plasticine porters with looking glass ties". No comparison. Beatles win hands down. And NO, I don't care which was released first. I am looking at a body of work, not a particular snippet. Genius is timeless. Certainly history remembers and will continue to remember the Beatles as the greatest rock band of the 20th century and beyond, and I say that not even coming close to being a huge big Beatles fan. I recognize them for the talent. The Monkees were talented too, but the Monkees are practically forgotten already, yet will surely be listed in the archives as one of the memorable bands of the 20th century. One thing Mr. Reppert doesn't take into account is it matters NOT when records are released as far as fan loyalty goes. His admiration for the Monkees and Larry Norman show that. A band does not have to be #1 on the charts, or even notable, or have a current record ( or should we say album or CDs these days?) to be #1 in a fan's heart/head. To say the Monkees replaced the Beatles as far as importance in Pop or Rock during a certain time, is simply a subjective opinion not justified by objective overall statistics. Although the Monkees sold tons of records, and we loved them, me too, you can't get into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame on record sales alone. The Monkees worked within the framework or rock. When they were gone rock went on the same as before. They didn't blaze any trails, do anything new, or perpetuate rock and roll, and that's what the Hall of Fame looks for. The Monkees imitated Beatles movies( crowd chases, zany, wacky, coo coo...jump in the air, roll on the ground, and on and on) and sounded like the Beatles. Everything they did was compared to the Beatles, if not in the media then in our minds/hearts. Nobody I knew ever compared the Beatles to the Monkees, except Mr. Reppert. I am not saying that is bad. Go for it. "Whatever gets you through the night is alright. " The Monkees were even called the American Beatles. Never the other way around.
Jimi Hendrix was already a destined for superstardom from his performance in the Monterey Pop Festival before signing on with the Monkees, and the record buying public would soon prove that, with or without the Monkees help. The Monkees were created for a sitcom and their fans were mostly pre-pubescent girl, teeny boppers. That's OK if you appreciated them because they had a Beatles flavor, I did too and I'm a male. I know two people who knew Jimi personally. Jimi was in the Army with a buddy of mine. I used to have one of those photo booth pics of Jimi in army fatigues. Carried it around till it disintegrated before the days on digital images. It doesn't matter, he is in my mind/heart. How pitiful if all I have is a picture or an album cover to make me important by association. All Jimi dreamed about was getting out and making music. My other friend hung out with Jimi after he was a superstar. Jimi quit the Monkees bubble gum tour in disgust, gave the audience the finger and said some nasty things before stomping off. The Beatles were fun ( as were the Monkees) and intelligent, innovative. Jimi was explosive. The Monkees were "cute" and gave us what we wanted to hear. I met Zappa. He ridiculed pop music ( which would include the Monkees) as, "only in it for the money". The Beatles started out as pop and cover songs, but the evolved beyond that in a way the Monkees never could. Hey, I'm not name dropping. I am nobody special, I just happened to be in the right place and time to meet some people. Don't know Boyce and Hart, or Don Kirshner.
I am not putting down the Monkees. or giving them a bad rap. They are part of my life that I will always treasure. How can anyone not love the Monkees? I am only relating to what I know personally on the subject and the names already brought up in this thread, ( except Janis, Big Brother, Airplane ). I'm not trying to pick a fight, or rain on anybody's parade but an obviously super-opinionated post, especially when wrong, cries out for rebuttal. Hopefully some true Beatle fan will jump in and do just that better than I can. I am too rational. A real fan will ( hopefully) tear you a new one if you dare say Monkees took over for the Beatles. I personally would induct the Monkees into the Hall of Fame if it were up to me, and a lot of others too, but the Hall of Fame has their head in the sand when it comes to what the public wants. We all know this. They don't give a crap about what we want unless it suits them too. And it should be obvious they are only in it (mostly) for the money too...now. I can tell you this, although with second hand authority, because I have friends who have been inducted and I also know charter members of the HoF, and they tell me personally what it is like. And it should be equally obvious by now that with enough money anyone can get a #1 hit and get in the HoF also. But Monkees greater than Beatles?...in your pleasant dreams, ya'll.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Wow.

[Lester]

Esp. considering Scott's not wrong... but clatter on, newb.

[Lee]

Let me see if I got all that...

Jimi Hendrix played guitar for the Monkees when Jack Nicholson sang for them, but Jim Morrison and Pearl Jam didn't have a car then so they got Janis Joplin to call the Beatles to give them a ticket to ride, which became a hit when Andy Warhol gave Lou Reed some heroin in an underground made out of velvet.

[Scott Reppert]

Aside from mentioning the fact that Jimi Hendrix replaced Glen Campbell, I think you got it...

[Bob Campbell]

Right after Glen took Brian Wilson's place because Brian went crazy because they didn't pick him to be Mike in the Monkees.