Looks like GM and Chrysler are toast

[cgarison]

Given the likely prospect that GM will soon follow Chrysler into bankruptcy, I doubt if any of these schemes to divide equity between the unions and Fiat being floated about will fly. For one thing, there was a recent rumor that Fiat was interested in buying a stake in Opel....

Wait a minute....doesn't Opel have some sort of relationship with GM? I could be -- heck, am -- terribly confused since recently doing some reading about GM's presence in Australia and getting a bunch of Daewoo and Opel stuff jumbled in my mind.....

GM Europe consists of Opel, Vauxhall, Saab, Corvette, Chevrolet, Cadillac, Hummer. Opel and Vauxhaul are both cars that are developed in Europe for primarily European drivers except for a couple of Holdens like the Monero (which is sold in the US as the Pontiac G8 and in 2011 the Chevy (Impala/Caprice Classic) something. Every Opel model that is sold in Europe is also branded in the UK as a Vauxhall. Saab used to be unique Swedish platform cars, but they are now platform prostitutes with the Saab 9-3 being the same as a Saturn Aura, Pontiac G6, Chevy Malibu, and Cadillac BLS. The Saab 9-7 is the same as the former Olds Bravada, former Buick Mountaineer, GMC Envoy, and Chevy TrailBlazer and carries a pedigree from Louisiana. GM even made a Saab 9-2x which was a bland engineered version of the Subaru Impreza that was potent, but not as insane as the WRX. Cadillacs in Europe are the same as those in America, except for the BLS, which will be appearing in the States in 2011 if the current rumors are true. Chevrolet is a mix vehicles with some models also avaiable in America (HHR, Captiva (new Equinox), Aveo, Epica (old Malibu)) and other Korean Daewoos like Nubira, which is sold in US as a Suzuki. Corvette and Hummer are just that and no different from the US offerings.

With Saturn on the chopping block and Opel for sale, things could be interesting for one lucky buyer. Saturn sales a variety of vehicles, but of interest are the Vue, Sky, Astra, and Aura which all exist as Opel (and Vauxhall) models. Saturn's dealer network is independent of the rest of GM's mess and can be easily broken away from the corporate monster. It could be possible for another car company to acquire both of these units of GM and have an instant entry point into the US market and then be able to leverage additional models from other makers around the world. This is the dream of the franchise owners of Saturn, but Fiat may be the only (victim) car company with cash on hand to purchase all the pieces to make the dream possible.

Fiat has been sniffing around both Saturn in the US and Opel in Europe. They could walk away from Chrysler and have a much better deal with GM.

[Tom Taggart]

Only if they are prepared to part with some $$$ or EEE (no Euro symbol on the keyboard, of course). They are not going to get pieces of Chrysler for free now that the bankruptcy court controls. However, they may get in Opel that way if they move fast before GM goes Chapter 11. My understanding is the German government also has a piece of Opel which may ease the way for a Fiat deal.

[cgarison]

And if memory serves me, Fiat wanted a merger of equals and accept a portion of the Chrysler liability yet give up none of their cash (probably from the $2 Billion settlement with GM in 2005) and assume control of Chrysler and their dealer network so they could distribute little Italian cars in the US.

The problem is people in the US can now watch TopGear on BBC America and hear James May, Richard Hammond, and Jeremy Clarkson complain about the love/lust-anger filled hatred that comes from owning a Fiat or Alfa Romeo.

Although, some say these are NSFW car porn pictures of the Alfa Brera, they are posted anyway.





And for those into hardcore car porn, may I present the 8C Convertible



And the 8C Competizione - WARNING VERY GRAPHIC Images.





My apologies for displaying Alfa's in their most graphic form. WVBroadcasting.net is not the place for this type of sex on wheels, but Fiat does have a romantic side which I want back in America.

[Bob Campbell]

Sweet.
btw, over 90 percent of GM debtholders had agreed to the GM proposal. If you consider less than 10 percent ( most of which was hedge funds) a majority, then you're correct.
Now in bankruptcy, they may do better, they may do worse.

[Arp2]

Those pictures definitely were arousing me.....

..........right up until the very second I realized that's what The Ambiguously Gay Duo travels around in.

[cgarison]

Those pictures definitely were arousing me.....

..........right up until the very second I realized that's what The Ambiguously Gay Duo travels around in.

Please don't confuse an Alfa with George Clooney's Batmobile

[Hoosier Daddy]

Maybe you're thinking about ...

.

[fearpeddler]

Maybe you're thinking about ...

.

[cgarison]

WooHoo!!!!!!!

I contributed to this headline! I helped make a difference!

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/05/01/ford ... an-toyota/

wOOt!!!!

[CoolBreeze]

Maybe you're thinking about ...

.

WHEW! Thank God I drive a MX MazdaSpeed!

[AmpedNow]

Toyota is becoming the company that everyone will love to hate. They have feared this day for years.

But the failure of the American car companies is not Toyota's fault. It's their refusal to roll with the times. Nor do they think Americans will drive anything "way out", so everything looks the same.

I present exhibit A...

The Ford Mondeo


This car is huge in Europe. But, Ford has never even considered releasing it here. Why? Because they think it won't sell here. So instead, we have this.




*Yawn*

The Focus isn't a bad car, but it's pretty boring compared to the Mondeo.

Then, there's the 2010 redesigned Mazda 3


Again, the Focus is boring compared to this.

Even the 2010 Corolla, a brand almost synonymous with boring, looks more fun.




I don't know about the surburban assault vehicles and the like, as I have little interest in them.

I'll buy American when they release the Mondeo here. Until then, I'll stick with the imports.

I refuse to be guilt tripped into buying American.

[cgarison]

I'll buy American when they release the Mondeo here. Until then, I'll stick with the imports.

I refuse to be guilt tripped into buying American.

Yea, you go ahead and stick with those imports.



My father knew a good thing when he bought a full size Buick in the early 80s. I too am not going to subject myself to the beating and pounding of a compact car when I can purchase a full size American car with a V8 for just a few dollars more after all discounts, etc. yada-yada.

As for the guilt trip, that would be me rubbing Dad's nose for the 30th time into my second full size Mercury that gets 25MPG highway after he went and traded up to a super heavy duty Chevy with a 6.0L V8 that sucks gas faster than the Valdez can bring it from the Middle East and has the ride quality of a WWII "Deuce And A Half."

Everybody knows a proper heavy duty Chevy should either have a 454 CU mill under the hood. Not some displacement on demand, uber de-tuned, CAFE inspired motor that takes 2 seconds at WOT to get full power from the motor that still screams "FEED ME" every time it passes a gas pump.

[Jet Black]

I don't understand that post.

I promised myself when I was a youngster I was never going to buy an Axis car, and I never have. Three of my four grandparents served during WWII, and I just decided I wasn't going to do it.

Now the whole world is upside down. When the next time comes for buying, we'll have to see how the world has shaken out. I tell you what, I'd feel better right now buying a Japanese car than some abomination foisted or forced on us by the green pipedreams and socialist control schemes of the current administration. I've been a GM man all my life, but I say now, Die, GM with whatever corporate self-respect you have left. Tell Obama and the UAW to pound sand, and fall on the sword of bankruptcy. I want to buy American, but if it takes buying Japanese to get a real car built on the American free market model, so be it.

[AmpedNow]

Jeep, there's probably one thing we can agree on...

My grandparents were Oldsmobile people. Their neighbors were Buick people. My great uncle had a Mercury Grand Marquis. And my father had a '75 Chevy Impala.

I fondly remember the super-quiet, "floating on air" rides to those cars. They were quality vehicles, and the ones that are still made probably still are. I loved them for what they were, but those rides of yore are just not practical for me, personally.

Well, pickup trucks are very practical. But, anyway...

In the compact market, the American companies have always been behind the curve of their Asian counterparts. It frustrates me that Ford won't even attempt to release the Mondeo here, for example, because it's too "Euro" for Americans.

If I'm looking for an affordable ride with an "edgy" design, and Ford won't even make it available to me, what am I supposed to do? Buy a Cobalt? Neon? Focus? No thanks. A Mazda 3, Civic, or a Corolla Sport are so far ahead of them in quality and cutting edge designs. (Although I've given the redesigned Focus its dues).

I am also not anti-Detroit. Far from it. But apart from gas-guzzling behemoths, they have done many, many things wrong, such as treating compacts like throwaway, "entry level" vehicles. (That term just pisses me off).

I want to buy American, but if it takes buying Japanese to get a real car built on the American free market model, so be it.

That's a whole other issue... How are the American workers in a Toyota plant somehow "less valuable" than the ones in Detroit?

Oh well. Backlash against Toyota, Honda, et al all you want. But realize that these companies are also very intertwined into the American economy. It won't come without cost.

[cgarison]

Jeep, there's probably one thing we can agree on...

I cannot wait for the curse of Jeep to slaughter Fiat! It will be a funny day when those smug little Italian bastages that freakin' stole $5 Billion from GM from 2000 through 2005 rot in hell with the most cursed brand in the short history of the automotive universe.

[rat hole]
Don't get me wrong, I love all things Jeep. Most guys dream of building a motorcycle in their garage. I dream of building a CJ3B from scratch with a Chevy 350, NV4500 5 speed tranny, and Atlas II transfer case. A couple of locked and loaded Dana 44's on TJ style coil springs and this thing will rock the trails. And a set of retro 16" full face steel wheels and bias ply tires will set this rig apart from the crowd. That's right! Old Skool! Just like the inspiartion behind my old TJ.
[/rat hole]

In the compact market, the American companies have always been behind the curve of their Asian counterparts. It frustrates me that Ford won't even attempt to release the Mondeo here, for example, because it's too "Euro" for Americans.

You have really missed one of the best small cars currently available that is about ready to have the sun set on its nameplate in the next few weeks. The Chevy Cobalt SS that is currently available in the states has rocked the automotive world. No, it does not have IRS like some of the competition, but that that does not detract from euro tuned suspension which can be seen in action on the WTCC winning Chevy Cruze. This is a total ass-kicking front driver that will make a GTI driving asshole cry as you hand it to him in a proper street race.

Mondeo? That trick was tried twice and failed. The Ford Contour was a great car, but the Euro edge was removed from the Mondeo for American consumption which created a fail on all fronts. The second Mondeo for the American market was the Jaguar X-Type and that poor POS was a fail in every aspect.

I am also not anti-Detroit. Far from it. But apart from gas-guzzling behemoths, they have done many, many things wrong, such as treating compacts like throwaway, "entry level" vehicles. (That term just pisses me off).

It was the Europeans that created that term for the micro-cars that make a Mondeo/BMW 3 Series look like a full size vehicles.

I want to buy American, but if it takes buying Japanese to get a real car built on the American free market model, so be it.

That's a whole other issue... How are the American workers in a Toyota plant somehow "less valuable" than the ones in Detroit?

Oh well. Backlash against Toyota, Honda, et al all you want. But realize that these companies are also very intertwined into the American economy. It won't come without cost.

As far as the workers are concerned, Toyota employees about 25% of the staff at the Georgetown plant. The other 75% are contractors that work for $10.00/hour with no benefits. Sure, the plants are relatively new hand more modern than similar plants owned by the big three, but the fact that work force is essentially the modern day equivalent of slave labor makes me raise an eyebrow as to why we accept these companies as "American" when they are part of the issue with the crumbling dream held by most Americans.

You are very correct about Honda and Toyota being an integrated part of American industry. As I have said for the last four years, a General Motors bankruptcy is going to cripple not just GM suppliers, but also Toyota who leverages many of the same components from those suppliers for American Camries, Avalons, Tundras, Highlanders, Corollas, etc. Toyota is not only working hard keeping their bean counters with sharpened pencils to stay out of the GM/Chrysler turmoil, they are creating contingencies to work around a universe with a fully, financially crippled GM. Although, that contingency plan is not the main priority as oyota is as financially sound as GM at the moment which either says GM is not as bad as we think or Toyota is a half step from oblivion and they have hidden this from the popular press very well.

Any way it is flipped, Ford and VW are about the only two car companies that are healthy at the time being. Maybe Tata can be included on that list as well.

[Jet Black]

I know this is not likely, but wouldn't it be great if it shook out that GM sold off divisions to determined independent investors? Can you imagine a Pontiac or a Buick operating free of the GM monolith, making cars not predicated on corporate economies or long-range corporate stratesgies? Just a dream. Meeting government regs alone I'm sure would prevent this from ever happening.

[cgarison]

Meeting government regs alone I'm sure would prevent this from ever happening.

That in itself is the insanity that has put the American auto industry in a tail spin. You cannot build cars that are:

1.) Taller - to raise the safety cage to stand the assault of an impacting SUV/truck.
2.) Wider - to make the car more stable in sudden maneuvers.
3.) Heavier - because of the addition of all the safety features.
4.) Complicated - systems like anti-lock brakes require many ponies to operate and computer power to actuate.

And then expect by some miracle that the car is going to have a better gas mileage to meet the more stringent CAFE standards. Sorry. It does not work that way. We have caused our own auto industry to fail with the stupidity of laws generated in DC to keep all the pork barrel bureaucrats happy.

[cgarison]

Damn! It gets worse. I can live without the Dakota. The Ram will be missed, but that would be a shame to lose it. The Viper will find a new home.

But the Wrangler!!!! Yea, it has a minivan motor and is too big to perform as it was designed, but lord, this is a tragedy.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Ne ... eId=147426

Manzo's declaration also raised red flags about the fate of the Jeep Wrangler.

His documents said a liquidation analysis of Chrysler "assumes that certain car lines and the plant assets supporting them will be sold as going-concern enterprises. These lines include Jeep Wrangler, Dodge Viper and Dodge Ram and Dakota truck lines."

But he delves deeply into the case of Jeep Wrangler, raising doubts about its ability to attract a buyer or survive as a stand-alone entity.

"The example of the Jeep Wrangler is instructive," Manzo writes in his affidavit. "A potential buyer would face significant additional investment costs in the range of $550 million to $1 billion.

"These additional costs include in excess of $100 million for signage to establish a dealer network, supplier-related costs exceeding $250 million and upwards of another $150 million in associated marketing costs to relaunch the car line. There are likely other significant costs that a potential buyer would have to incur in order to re-establish the brand. In addition, recent market experience reflected in the efforts to sell Saturn, Opel, Saab and Hummer brands indicates an extremely depressed market for stand-alone automotive brands."

Manzo's declaration was part of thousands of pages of documents filed in regard to the Chrysler bankruptcy.

[AmpedNow]

Mondeo? That trick was tried twice and failed. The Ford Contour was a great car, but the Euro edge was removed from the Mondeo for American consumption which created a fail on all fronts.

I do not see a Mondeo anywhere in a Contour, which was an incredibly boring car.

This is my point... Stripping everything down for the American "squares" isn't always the best decision.

I can't imagine the Mondeo released as pictured stateside would be a total failure. Although the Tarus and Fusion crowd wouldn't like it, it would still find a niche.

Conversely, this is a main reason why American vehicles are not popular overseas. They're boring, oversized gashogs compared to what you can find elsewhere.

As for Toyota, there is no question the bad economy has hit them hard. They can't move vehicles out of their lots, either. Their lack of incentives compared to other companies is puzzling, but I digress...

I just feel this anti-import mantra steadily growing in the country, and Toyota will top the list of the companies to hate, because they are the largest. As the owner of a Toyota vehicle, I hope it don't get to the point of being harassed and fearing for my safety in certain areas just because of what I drive.

Just a side question: Does anyone think that Toyota and other overseas auto companies will have unionization forced upon them in their US plants within the next four years?

[cgarison]

1998 Ford Mondeo



1998 Ford Contour SVT



Quite honestly, I really liked the last year of the Contour which was produced in 2000. It had the tightest suspension of all years of the American car and when equipped with a 4 cylinder and a 5 speed was a very nice handing car. The Duratec 3.0L DOHC motor was much too heavy for the platform and negatively impacted the balance of chassis.

Similarly, the 2010 Ford Fusion I4, 5 Speed has received rave reviews in many of the car rags for sharp, crisp handling that is uncharacteristic of a typical American front drive car, but most Americans will purchase the unbalanced and soggy version of the car with the latest version of the 3.0L V6. The 3.5L V6 is available with the more rigid and performance oriented suspension (like the SVT Contour of the 1990s) but it still suffers from under steer (push) due to having too much weight on the front axle.

The current American Focus is a reskinned version of the 1st Gen Euro Focus. When the 2nd Generation Focus was rolled out in Europe, Bill Ford goofed and did not allow for it to be made into an American version due to the issues with the 2000-2001 version and 16+ recalls for sloppy redesign issues. When Alan Mullally took the reigns of FoMoCo in 2006, his first mandate was to start prepping the Gen 3 Focus to be released in Europe and the US at the same time. (The second mandate was to not discontinue the Towncar, Crown Vic, and Grand Marquis and move all rear drive BOF production to STAP).

Then next generation mid-size sedan for Ford in the US will be based on the same platform as the Mondeo. The time for that cars introduction is probably 5 years away so enjoy the Fusion while you can.