Attention rock PDs!

[Lee]

Couple bands I can pull off the top of my mind atm (its a little hazy in there this evenin) would be Rage against the machine and primus, both had alot of hits, especially rage, i'm suprised to not hear either on occasion, or ministry even. Weezer had a pile of hits, as did White Zombie.. I love me sum metal too but I know none of it would be valid to this conversation..


It amazes me that people actually like the new GnR track, its so overproduced it makes britney spears seem like a garage band to me.. As does the new metallica to my ears. That AC/DC is sum good shit though, I'll ask every PD that reads this to please not wear out a good song I learn alot every time one of these conversations break out so keep goin, theres 2 more cents to throw on the pile, I think its all been said before though.

I still hear RATM on the radio, but Primus and Weezer...not so much. I NEVER hear Ministry and rarely hear White Zombie. I know when Rob Zombie went solo you all played the shit out of "Dragula" and "Living Dead Girl."

Also, I want every girl out there to stop saying "Crazy Bitch" is about you, because it isn't! Also, Buckcherry is getting a bit played out.

No one ever talks about Dream Theater. Oh sure, we get Rush and Geddy Lee's chipmunk vocals shoved down our gullet, but when it comes to one of the best progressive bands ever they barely get a mention.

Dude, ya think the new GnR and Metallica is overproduced?? What song isn't nowadays? Well, I should say, what song on a MAJOR label isn't overproduced? I really don't pay any attention to the production of a song or CD...but Metallica's "St. Anger" sounded like crap!

Back to the topic. Like I said before, ya gotta play the hits...just space them out a bit more. Make the listener WANT to hear the song, which in tune will make the listener either stay locked on your station to hear the song or go out and buy the CD. It's a win-win, right? That's just my opinion, anyway! However, in these days of the internetz, if one wants to hear a song they'll just listen to it somewhere online. Sadly, radio is going the way of the BETAMAX when it comes to new music. But on the other side of the fence, there's still quite a few folks with neither a computer or access to the internet that DO listen to the radio to get new music and information.

I found quite a few of my favorite bands by just skimming Myspace or looking on Amazon...alot of bands radio wouldn't touch. There was a band called Union in the mid 90s, founded by ex-KISS guitarist Bruce Kulick and John Corabi, the band had AMAZING songs and should have been huge, but rarely got played.

[The-Hammer]

Is anyone else pissed off about this seemingly new round of tween bands (i.e. The Jonas Brother, That Chick From Drake and Josh on Nickelodeon, Miley, The Naked Brothers Band, etc?) By 7 year old loves it. Is there an adult market for any of this crap or are we being forcefed this shit to appease our children?

[Lee]

Actually, The Chipmunks have more talent.

[Jay Nunley]

Today, I turned on the radio to ROCK STATION #1, and I heard Aerosmith's "Walk This Way"...a few hours later, I heard "Dream On." I won't say the name of the station to avoid being nipped on the ankles by it's piranhas. Why play the same band in such a short time frame?

That's an unusually long artist separation for Aerosmith. Why play the same band in a short time frame? Because they are an extraordinarily popular band and the audience wants to hear them. Are you suggesting we should only play Aerosmith once or twice a day? What should the separation be? What should we play instead? A song or band the audience doesn't like?

I turned it over to ROCK STATION #2, I heard Nickelcrack's "Rockstar" and their new single called, "Mutt Lange Produced Our New Album So You Know It's Gonna Sound Like Def Leppard in the 80s" in the same two hour time frame. Again, same band, different song.

They're not as popular as Aerosmith, but very popular still. Same reason as above.

Now, onto ROCK STATION #3, I heard AC/DC's "Rock 'n Roll Train" within two hours on the same station. It's a great song, but just like with eating, drinking, and masturbating...moderation is key!

Maybe someone has recognized the demand for the song and is giving the audience what it desires.

The same bands with different songs routine is not "mixing it up", it's oversaturation of a "popular" band. The same song over and over is not giving the people what they want, it's overkill. There's plenty of other bands out there with current and former hits that can be played. Y'all have a wealth of songs to choose from...use it!

Who said anyone was trying to "mix it up?" I don't give a damn about "mixing it up" or playing a wider variety of songs, or any of this other stuff. I'm only interested in people listening to my station and reporting it to Arbitron. In order to get them to do that I have to give them what they want, not what I want or what I want them to want. When you call it "oversaturation" what do you mean? Where is the line? Just because something can be played does that automatically mean you should play it? A "wealth" of songs? What songs? Unpopular and unfamiliar songs? Do you really think that programmers avoid playing songs the audience wants?

You're not getting my point (or you are ignoring it). Just because you would like to hear more depth and width doesn't mean that's what the vast majority of the audience or potential audience wants. You're assuming everyone has the same musical taste, desire, and expectation you have.

Look, I could go into a long and drawn out explanation/discussion of TSL, recycling, quarter hour slicing, core artist exposure, primary/secondary ratio, impact efficiency, brand expectation, and all that truly boring and sometimes very overwrought technical programming crap. I won't because I don't have the time or inclination, but also because it won't matter. There is no way to force anyone to "get it" on this.

I can't stress this enough, so I won't try to stress it enough. I will just stress it. You have to find out how, when, and why (and where to a degree) your target audience uses radio in general and your station specifically. If you don't have that information and if you don't base every programming decision on that information it won't matter how cool your station is. It won't matter how perfect your clock exposures are, how delicate and careful your soundcoding is, and it damn sure won't matter that you aren't "oversaturating" Aerosmith. You will be off the mark and will not get the maximum share of your target demo.

I know Jay is technically correct because he is, after all, a radio programming genius.

I'm not "technically" correct. I'm just plain old "correct". I'm nothing even approaching genius in anything (especially radio programming). I'm just the guy who does the thing.

[AmpedNow]

I understand that good programming is an art, but is it all pure research and hard numbers? Is there any intuition to it?

If a PD really knows and enjoys a certain format, does intuition count for anything?

For example, there has been a few times I was choosing songs to load on my Zune. I would see one that I haven't heard for awhile, even on radio, and think to myself, "You know, that would be a good gold track to hear right about now". Then a few days later hear that same song come up in rotation on radio. Is this pure coincidence, or are PDs "feeling" the same thing I am? This is a serious question because this has happened quite a bit.

I also have a decent success rate of picking hits off of new music samplers. However, there are some that I swore would be slam-dunk hits that never even got airplay. And there are others I wasn't impressed with at first that did well.

FTR, I'm not a programmer, so I really don't know... But if I was thrown into the position on CHR or alternative, while there would no doubt be much to learn, I don't think I would be totally blind, either. I know these two formats really well because I personally enjoy them.

[Dave Loudin]

Today, I turned on the radio to ROCK STATION #1, and I heard Aerosmith's "Walk This Way"...a few hours later, I heard "Dream On." I won't say the name of the station to avoid being nipped on the ankles by it's piranhas. Why play the same band in such a short time frame?

I turned it over to ROCK STATION #2, I heard Nickelcrack's "Rockstar" and their new single called, "Mutt Lange Produced Our New Album So You Know It's Gonna Sound Like Def Leppard in the 80s" in the same two hour time frame. Again, same band, different song.

Now, onto ROCK STATION #3, I heard AC/DC's "Rock 'n Roll Train" within two hours on the same station. It's a great song, but just like with eating, drinking, and masturbating...moderation is key!

The same bands with different songs routine is not "mixing it up", it's oversaturation of a "popular" band. The same song over and over is not giving the people what they want, it's overkill. There's plenty of other bands out there with current and former hits that can be played. Y'all have a wealth of songs to choose from...use it!

You were listening over a two hour period, but how many others were? Why punish the person who tuned in 25 minutes after you did? How often have we gotten a request for major-smash-but-burnt-song right after the song played?

[Arp2]

Do you really think that programmers avoid playing songs the audience wants?

Of course! It's an evil scheme! Some sort of complex backdoor deal or something!

You're assuming everyone has the same musical taste, desire, and expectation you have.

All the smart ones actually worth having as listeners do, I'lltellyuhwhut.

Look, I could go into a long and drawn out explanation/discussion of...quarter hour slicing....

Don't insult my intelligence! Every golfer knows that's the superstition around your shot going way off to the right once every 15 minutes!

...impact efficiency....

Yep, definitely talking about golf again, and that's why so many use the "Big Bertha!" Those club head designers work hard to maximize impact efficiency, and golfers all over very much apprectiate it!

You have to find out how, when, and why (and where to a degree) your target audience uses radio in general and your station specifically.

Screw it! Just rock, man! If you rock it, people will come!


Um.....what'd I just say?

[Jay Nunley]

I understand that good programming is an art, but is it all pure research and hard numbers? Is there any intuition to it?

If a PD really knows and enjoys a certain format, does intuition count for anything?

Using research as a "bible" is just as weak a programming strategy as using gut and intuition exclusively.

You can do it all based on research and have some success, but your station will not reach its full potential.

I would say that a PD must know and enjoy the format to even be eligible for success.

[Jet Black]

Randy Travis says you've got to play the hits.

[Jay Nunley]

Of course! It's an evil scheme! Some sort of complex backdoor deal or something!

Dude. Stop telling people about the evil scheme. Secrecy is the key component.

[Schaffer]

This discussion reminds me of the time Nunley, Animal, Kidd C, Dale Alexander, and myself were all having drinks on the deck at a local bar. Some dude (who was really happy to be hanging out with all the jocks in town, though not invited), decided to give us all a lesson like Lee's. listening to Jay and Kidd try to explain programming to this guy, made me double down on the Jameson. No matter how much data was thrown at this guy, he went right back to the "my friends listen to.......routine. He just couldn't get it. Every word Jay just typed is the gospel truth. It sucks, but it is the only way to ratings success. WE DON'T PROGRAM TO LISTENERS, WE PROGRAM TO DIARY KEEPERS.

You want to see it mixed up, drop kick your radio. I WANT MY FUCKING RATINGS BONUS!!!!!!!!

I just don't see what is so difficult to understand. If off the wall worked, we would play it. I'll take a solid station bringing in buckets of money over a little street cred, any day of the week.

On another note, there is now an alternative that has not even been brought up in this thread, HD radio. My HD 2 station features all the hair bands and metal you can shake a stick at. We play Testament, Sabbath, the Firehouse you crave so much, Dokken, Poison, Winger(they had a bunch of hits, do you want them all over rock radio?), and all the rest. Once more people get HD radios, these stations will fill the nitch. Something tells me that my main stick is in no great danger.

Sorry if i came off as harsh, it's just tough to here backseat programmers talk about a radio utopia that will never exist. If it did, we would all go broke.

[Jay Nunley]

WE PROGRAM TO DIARY KEEPERS.

I disagree with that part. There are tactics we employ to get more from diary keepers for sure, but we program to the audience.

That's probably me splitting hairs.

Hey Schaffer! We need pictures of your sister.

[Clay JD Walker]

I'm just still caught up on what's so wrong with playing what people wanna hear...core artists are core artists, hits are hits...narrow thinking and narrow focused programming will always win, especially in the world of multiple choices. Again, using the McDonald's comparison...notice how no matter how many new items they may add to the menu, they one, don't last but maybe three months at a time (McRib, et. all), and two, the core is still there no matter what. McDonald's is made up with, say, 90% Big Mac, Quarter Pounder, McNugget buyers, and the other 10% dig on the McRib, Snack Wrap and the like. I'm certain that research has shown that in order for McDonald's to stand strong above the competition, they must keep the core, but continue to have the extra stuff as 'spice'...sure, Burger King kinda does the same, but not as good as McDonalds...

Now, think about radio...I'll use country as my example, because I don't understand Rock as much as I would like. We have our core...Kenny, George Strait, Alan Jackson, Toby Keith, and Tim McGraw...and those are played heavily...why? Because when listeners think Wolf, they think of those artists...it's a no brainer. However, we also play high testing records from the Buddy Jewel's of the world whom are known for only one tune...why? Because the song has a lot of passion...Sweet Southern Comfort is the name...it talks about everything that the south is about...our listeners also demand us to be first with new music...ok, got that covered...cool contests...got it too...up-beat and fun jocks that live the format and are also passionate about it...

90%/10%...

Play the hits...to think that people sit and listen to your radio station through an entire day, daypart, hour, quarter hour, or even a full song is crazy. Sure, some listeners have nothing better to do than to sit and listen...but that's the tail wagging the dog...chances are, if you program to them, he or she will never get a diary...and what's worse, when PPM rolls out in a market near you, they'll be useless.

And remember, none of us on this message board listens to radio as our consumers listen. Take it down a few notches, take a shot, and grin after playing "Just Got Started Loving You" by James Otto for the 1305th over the last 12 months, because there are new people tuning to your radio station and staying there because they heard a song that they really, really love.

[Ace Purple]

Just because you would like to hear more depth and width doesn't mean that's what the vast majority of the audience or potential audience wants.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Hey Schaffer! We need pictures of your sister.

<bump>

ahem ...

[Lee]

GAH!

I GET PLAYING THE HITS!!!

I'm not trying to give anyone a lesson. I'm not in radio, you guys are. I get that, too. I don't approach any radio guy I know or have worked with in the past to give him or her a lesson. Hell, the average listener still thinks there's still live DJs. LIVE DJs! That's sooooooooooo 20th century!!

And, also...I understand the nuances of programming. You play what's popular, what the audience wants....you play for ratings and that almighty advertising dollar. I.get.that.

I guess the real question is this: Why play that "new" hit to death? WAIT! I know certain people listen to the radio certain parts of the day. So what's the average rotation that "new" hit gets played? And who decides this? What Kathy the Hep C Queen in New York likes maybe different than what Fred the Champion Food Stamp Card Slider in Pedro, OH may like. Say if the new Kenny Rogers dance-remix of "Hair of my Beard, Skin of my Chicken" tests high in New York, but tests poorly in HuntingIronCharleston...where does the single fall in rotation? Do record companies grab you by the balls and demand you play their latest abomination?

I understand Nickelback's popularity and the lyrical genius of Chad Kroeger. It's the lowest common denominator. And I know it must be played...people are buying this shit. Their last CD sold 4 million units...so ONE OF YOU bought it!

[Dave Allen]

I admit it...I bought it. I dont' know which is worse, admitting that I bought Nickelback or that I actually BOUGHT a CD (people still do that, believe it or not). Sorry guys, but I don't subscribe to the theory that rock-n-roll has to save the world or to be the proverbial brain surgery. Its really not that bad.


'Just sayin'

[Big Media]

I understand Nickelback's popularity and the lyrical genius of Chad Kroeger. It's the lowest common denominator. And I know it must be played...people are buying this shit. Their last CD sold 4 million units...so ONE OF YOU bought it!

Yes... but which came first? Did millions of people decide one day that they love Nickelshit and run out and buy 4 million units, so radio all around the world decided to start playing the hell out of it?

OR

Did hundreds of program directors, because some consultant told them to do so, start playing the hell out of a crappy song so millions of people would run out and buy the CD?

The buck stops with the PD, IMO. If PDs would learn to say NO TO NICKELBACK, Nickelback would have no outlet for their shitty music and only their core groupies (I say there are less than 100 of these) would run out and buy it.

Remember... NO TO NICKELBACK! YES WE CAN!

[Lee]

I understand Nickelback's popularity and the lyrical genius of Chad Kroeger. It's the lowest common denominator. And I know it must be played...people are buying this shit. Their last CD sold 4 million units...so ONE OF YOU bought it!

Yes... but which came first? Did millions of people decide one day that they love Nickelshit and run out and buy 4 million units, so radio all around the world decided to start playing the hell out of it?

OR

Did hundreds of program directors, because some consultant told them to do so, start playing the hell out of a crappy song so millions of people would run out and buy the CD?

The buck stops with the PD, IMO. If PDs would learn to say NO TO NICKELBACK, Nickelback would have no outlet for their shitty music and only their core groupies (I say there are less than 100 of these) would run out and buy it.

Remember... NO TO NICKELBACK! YES WE CAN!

I remember that first song on their first album, "How You Remind Me" was played TO DEATH on rock radio. It didn't help matters that they played X-Fest in 2001 and they played it a few more million times to remind people that, "Yes, Nickelback is coming and will headline over Henry Rollins."

Perhaps it's a combination of both PDs consultants. I don't think anyone rushed out to buy the new Eqypt Central or Another Black Day CDs after their "one" song was played on radio.

[Nate G]

Not to be picky, but "How You Remind Me" was actually on their 3rd studio album. And it wasn't their first released single, either. Just an FYI.