Retail bloodbath coming?

[Force Commander]

http://adage.com/article?article_id=132581

[CoolBreeze]

Not if you drive to Southridge outside of Charleston. Looks like people are spending all they can.... before they go broke.

[Lester]

Well, so far the banks can do what they want and the government will bail them out.

Car makers are next.

President Elect Obama is talking to bail out of those that can't pay their mortgage. (If you pay yours, you're a SUCKER!)

ANd shortly thereafter will be a credit card bailout for everyone with too much credit card debt.

All this shit is being talked about by the Dems... and they control the house, the senate, and the white house... why wouldn't Joe Sixpack run out and spend like a fool if he KNOWS help is on the way, *AND* he gets to keep the stuff.

Best.
Christmas.
EVER.

[Jet Black]

Who was that guy I'm thinking of? Baron Von Toqueville?

Maybe someday they'll refer to this as Krazney December.

[cgarison]

Well, so far the banks can do what they want and the government will bail them out.

Car makers are next.

President Elect Obama is talking to bail out of those that can't pay their mortgage. (If you pay yours, you're a SUCKER!)

ANd shortly thereafter will be a credit card bailout for everyone with too much credit card debt.

All this shit is being talked about by the Dems... and they control the house, the senate, and the white house... why wouldn't Joe Sixpack run out and spend like a fool if he KNOWS help is on the way, *AND* he gets to keep the stuff.

Best.
Christmas.
EVER.

Dude. Change is good.

[Jet Black]

Instead of giving the Big 3 $25b as a bailout, let's give by lottery one million Americans with tax returns within a certain range (say $25k to $50k a year for singles, $35k to $80k a year married w/ children) a $25k check good for buying an American car. That way, the car companies sell a million more cars, they are out of trouble, but don't get taxpayer money for free. The winners will have to pay all taxes, which will fill state coffers. Furthermore, a lot of good used cars will filter down into the market quickly, lowering prices on good used cars, which will benefit everybody else.

[genlock]

Toyota's are built in America.
Do they qualify?

[cgarison]

Toyota's are built in America.
Do they qualify?

Toyotas built in America (Along with Nissans, Hondas, Hyundai, Kia, etc) are the issue because these cars are being built in America with engineering and design cost subsidies from the parent country governments. So we have socialist based companies unfairly competing against American auto manufacturers and then to get around the tariffs for importing cars, they assemble the cars in America.

Drive to an Acura (Honda) dealer and look at the stickers. The cars are assembled of 90% Japanese components in Marysville, OH. Acuras were built in Japan until the tariffs got too high so the assembly was outsourced to America and parts production stayed in Japan. That takes advantage of every economic loophole on the books and gives Honda an unfair advantage in the marketplace which has helped hurt the big three.

IMO, the dipshits in congress owe Detroit the money without any form of payback for the simple fact that they allowed unfair competition from foreign automakers to weaken our domestic auto industry. Plus they stupidly coupled higher CAFE mileage ratings to cars that weigh 50% more due to more stringent NHTSA safety requirements. Something has to give. You cannot make a car that weighs 4000 lbs as fuel efficient as a car that weighs 3000 lbs. Give the big three the money, and make better rules that allow better competition. And freakin subsidized development of renewable fuels.

Look at it this way, nuclear power would not have existed in the 1950's had it not been for the R&D performed with the Manhattan Project. Now it is time to have a new Manhattan Project to come up with renewably powered cars.

[/soapbox]

[Arp2]

Toyotas are built in America.
Do they qualify?

Toyota is actually the "3" of the "Big Three" these days, and, yes, they're very much built in America, perhaps even more so than the models of the "Detroit Three."

Toyotas, Hondas, Hyundais, Nissans, BMWs....they're all American-built these days, and not a one of them is whining as loudly as the former "Big Three."

This proposed Auto Bailout is not an auto bailout.....it's a union bailout. It is not the responsibility of Americans to fund unions, union bosses, union activities, and the illusions unions want to present to potential victims...er, "members." Let the Detroit Three and their union "valued partners" reap exactly what they have sown and reorganize under Chapter 11.

I actually feel for GM....they've finally gotten a clue and appear to be very much on the road to desirable products and a successful turnaround. Ford, though....aside from "big pickups," I have no idea why it exists.

As far as other retailers go, I still see packed parking lots every time I go by and packed stores, shops, and aisles every time I go in....

Toyotas built in America (Along with Nissans, Hondas, Hyundai, Kia, etc) are the issue because these cars are being built in America with engineering and design cost subsidies from the parent country governments. So we have socialist based companies unfairly competing against American auto manufacturers....

Um, there's a not-so-little problem with that argument -- Toyota and Honda models have consistently cost more than the comparable Ford and GM models!

[cgarison]

Toyotas built in America (Along with Nissans, Hondas, Hyundai, Kia, etc) are the issue because these cars are being built in America with engineering and design cost subsidies from the parent country governments. So we have socialist based companies unfairly competing against American auto manufacturers....

Um, there's a not-so-little problem with that argument -- Toyota and Honda models have consistently cost more than the comparable Ford and GM models!

So that means that the Japanese government is subsidizing Toyota development and Toyota charging more for their cars and Toyota is screwing the system by importing parts to assemble cars without paying tariffs to protect the American auto industry.

3 Stikes! Throw the Toyota out of the country ASAP or make them pay appropriate taxes on the imported parts ASAP.


BTW! That union bailout stuff is a bunch of hot air that don't mean squat in this argument. If GM fails and all of the retiree healthcare falls on the back of the government than it will cost 5 times as much than if we fix GM, Ford and Chrysler. Maybe I have spent to much time in Philly, but that union card just don't play out in an economic situation like this.

BTW! We voted for Change and that change included the executive branch screwing union membership of their rights so I expect that lots of money is going to be funneled to the questionable powers that have traditionally controlled union labor.

[AmpedNow]

Drive to an Acura (Honda) dealer and look at the stickers. The cars are assembled of 90% Japanese components in Marysville, OH. Acuras were built in Japan until the tariffs got too high so the assembly was outsourced to America and parts production stayed in Japan.

I'll take a TSX over anything coming out of Detroit. Any day. This ride is pure hotness. Wish I could afford one now...

While I feel like we're going to have to help them restructure, the fact is, they're not competing with this. Anything similar coming out of Detroit that doesn't look "older", or as reliable?

GM could compete with this... They're just too bogged down to do so.

As for tariffs and unfair advantages, I won't argue that point. But that is not solely the reason Detroit fell behind...

Toyota and Honda models have consistently cost more than the comparable Ford and GM models!

Yes, and the resale value is much higher. Does it have anything to do with reliability?

It's not perceived, either. I've driven many different cars and seen many Toyotas and Nissans go well over 200k. Nissan trucks are little workhorses. I seen one with over 300k, and it wasn't taken care of, either.

While I've seen quite a few Big 3 cars with 100k+, I haven't seen many with over 200k.

Plus, I don't think this "bigger is better" mindset is dead yet. Until they create SUVs that get over 30 mpg city, this will be an issue.

How come Detroit are the only ones complaining about CAFE standards?

[cgarison]

How come Detroit are the only ones complaining about CAFE standards?

A little bit of infor for the world of the uninformed, the biggest company lobby trying to reverse the CAFE standards in the last 2 years has been:

TOYOTA MOTOR MANUFACTURING!

Toyota has lost the most in their move to combat the Venerable F150 and the ever reliable Silverado/Sierra. The 2007+ Tundra is physically the largest 1/2 ton pickup and the newest Sequoia is the thirstiest truck based SUV on the road. (Note: the 5.7 Hemi Jeep Commander is not truck based.) Plus, the most environmentally unfriendly car for the dollar is the Prius with all of those toxic batteries and heavy metal based electronics.

Anyone on this board thinking Toyota is company that only makes environmentally friendly cars and Toyota is a caring company is paying attention to only the marketing and not studying the journals that chronicle the auto industry. Toyota is as big of an offender as GM as has more to lose from a GM bankruptcy than any other car maker. Has anyone on this board noticed how many parts that are not shipped from Japan that are put in a Toyota are sourced from suppliers that are in common with GM? How will a Toyota Camry look on the lot when it is missing a steering column, radio components, OBDII parts for emissions controls and other items that come from Mexico? How will Subaru Foresters look missing steering wheels and Imprezas/Outbacks missing all of those components that were developed and sourced while the company was 49% owned by GM? What about Mazdas missing almost every part that also has a number in the FoMoCo catalog. And Daimler Benz is royally screwed because they source part numbers for the current Chrysler 300/Dodge Charger and current Jeep Grand Cherokee/Commander. MItsubishi has been screwed for the last three years, but Chrysler failing will just cause the Japanese government to pump even more money into this hopeless auto manufacturer to cover shared assembly plants here in America.

The failure of GM/Ford and Chrysler will not only cause a huge intensely insane amount of unemployment here at home, but it is also going to suck the coffers dry of all 1st world nations and the world experiences the next great depression.

[Arp2]

Toyota and Honda models have consistently cost more than the comparable Ford and GM models!

Yes, and the resale value is much higher. Does it have anything to do with reliability?

It's not perceived, either. I've driven many different cars and seen many Toyotas and Nissans go well over 200k. Nissan trucks are little workhorses. I seen one with over 300k, and it wasn't taken care of, either.

In a strange moment at a recent funeral, a guy recognized me and pulled me aside to remind me he was the person who bought my last car from me....it had about 240,000 miles on it then, and he "had" to tell me he's put another 150,000 on it. He's wanting -- no, planning -- to hit 500K.

[cgarison]

BTW.... 250K to 300K is very common on the clock of Ford P71s that are used as taxis in Philly. The cars are extremely reliable and I have no worries about my car with 108K on the odometer. Hell. I am only 4000 miles on my third set of tires. 20K on my second set of brakes. Ford Panthers are well renowned for half a million miles.

There is a reason why these vehicles are fleet standards for service cars/people carriers/livery. Another great Ford is the little Ranger pickup which is also an awesome performer in work fleets as well.

Ironically neither vehicle has been seriously redesigned since the early 1990s proving evolution and refining a car is better than revolution and redesigning.

[Larkin Ocho Cinco]

Loaning money to the Auto industry wouldn't be terrible if it saves jobs and there are conditions attached to it. Develope cars that get better gas mileage, are designed better, last longer. Writing a blank check, would do nothing but prolong the inevitable.

[cgarison]

I am still trying to figure out this retail blood bath thing. I have seen more cash being spent in the last three weekend than I have seen in a long, long while. Yesterday, I could not park in front of a Best Buy at the Moorestown Mall in NJ because of the number of people shopping. Ditto for the Barnes & Noble across the street. And when I checked out, I was the only one swiping plastic. The rest of the folks had huge wads of cash. Glorious cash.

[genlock]

Probably some federal govt "Bailout Bucks".

[Tom Taggart]

Alexis de Toqueville predicted the fall of the American republic when the voters discover that they can vote themselves into the exchequer (treasury).

[AmpedNow]

Should we just draw a hard line and say "No more bailouts, period!"? Part of me favors this approach.

Yes, the next few years would be painful, as all of these bad debts and loans, bankruptcies, and corporate restructuring slowly work through the system... But at least we would know that the problems that led us to this point are fixed, and will never happen again -- as opposed to delaying the inevitable, which is the case for Detroit.

It would truly be "Morning in America" again, with another 40-year American renaissance beginning. Very similar to the post-WW2 boom of the late 40's and the 50's.

[Jet Black]

As an ultrconservative, I believe most problems can be solved by applying ideals. Since I think the governemtn ought to generally stay out of the business of business, I think the best thing to do would to let the normal market forces work out the problem within the market. However, I feel a lot of these problems were caused by the fiddling of government in business affairs, which screws up the ability of the market to work normally; therefore government is somewhat obligated to help those areas of industry and business that government tweaking screwed up. GM has done this to themselves, and they need reorganization. But having government force GM to spend money on whatever hairbrained political cause celebre idea will never let them crawl out of any hole. CAFE fuel averages are a horrible failure, and are exeplary of why government should not be in GM's business. Electric cars are silly, but GM has been forced to spend billions developing them. Remember the Impact? A billion bucks, down the toilet. Let's let GM reorganize, and get government off GM's backs. If we need to loan them some money, just this once, while they're reorganizing, ok, but no strings attached other than repayment.

What we really need is Huckabee's Fair Tax; then foreign-made cars would no longer have any tax advatage over US cars.