Analog communication more intelligible than digital

[CoolBreeze]

Digital Radio Studies and Reports (From WSAZ)

The International Association of Fire Chiefs (IAFC) recently studied the differences between analog and digital radio systems after departments brought their concerns to the organization.

In its interim report dated May 2008, the IAFC found that analog communication was more intelligible than digital in 6 of 9 high-noise environment tests. It has come up with a "best practices" guide for users of digital radios and is working to develop audio-intelligibility standards. (read the report here)

Without a current standard in place, the IAFC came up with this desired outcome for digital radios: "Analog voice intelligibility quality or better in digital radios, particularly in those areas tested where firefighter communication is paramount to their survival."

MRT, a Mobile Radio Technology publication, reported that the Prince William County Department of Fire and Rescue in Woodbridge, Virginia, released a report that claims problems associated with the county's digital radio system contributed to the death of one of its firefighters. (read the article here)

And in Indianapolis, Indiana, TheIndyChannel.com has reported that that firefighters have questioned the safety of the their digital radio system, and have asked the county to delay their switch from analog to digital. (read the story here)

Reports say that the same multi-million dollar digital radio system that West Virginia is currently implementing could fail during emergency situations. One post-incident report out of Virginia claims the failure of the radios contributed to a firefighter’s death. The concerns have some in Kanawha County taking proactive measures to make sure that doesn't happen here.

Kanawha County Emergency Operations Center Coordinator, Dave Erwin, tells WSAZ.com that the county is aware of reports of radio problems in other states that use the same Motorola P25 digital system that West Virginia has in place. Those reports mostly pertain to the inability to hear radio transmissions in high-noise environments, and radios receiving "out of range" signals when inside buildings.

More...http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/24311924.html

[sportsvoice]

Can you he__ _e _ow? _ello? He__o?

[Hoosier Daddy]

Public safety agencies could've had a Cadillac analog radio system for 1/10th of the cost of digital. But the sales weasels at Motorola, and to a lesser extent, GE/Ericsson/Com-Net/MACOM and EF Johnson, wouldn't give the customer what they needed -- they sold what gave the sales force the highest commissions.

The dirty little secret of digital trunking is that operating protocols are proprietary. In other words, if you buy a Motorola SmartNet II trunked radio system, you can only buy (high dollar) Motorola mobiles, portables, and base stations from now 'til hell freezes over. This eliminates competitive bidding to replace parts of an aging system down the road, or ... simply getting sick of the radios you have (maybe a quality of manufacturing or a service issue) and phasing them out for a better product from another vendor, like you could easily do with an analog system. Your original system designer has you by the balls until you can afford to scrap EVERYTHING and start over. And you're talking Billions of dollars to totally replace a statewide digital system like Ohio MARCS or West Virginia's WVIRP network.

Firefighters have a number of life safety issues with digital radios. First, they require an education to operate. The days of "turn it on, push to talk" are over. Every firefighter must receive training on selecting different talkgroups, often based on the geographical location of the call, and each must understand the benefits and limitations of simplex operations, fireground (suitcase) repeaters, and high-rise repeaters, and they must learn to use these radios in total darkness, on their hands and knees, with thick gloves on, and often in 400 degree heat. Second, the radios are prone to audio overload and falsing from loud noise sources, particularly a fire pump going full throttle, a chain saw, or the gasoline-powered engine on the Jaws-of-Life. Something to do with Vocoders. Last but not least, they're expensive. A top-of-the-line 16 channel analog VHF portable from Motorola can be had for about $1100, including battery and changer. The cheapest 800 MHz trunking portable is about $3400. A cash strapped fire department that could afford three analog portables can purchase only one digital radio for the same amount of money. So instead of every firefighter having portable communications, one radio per team is assigned. If the floor collapses, or if someone gets lost inside a burning building, hopefully the Russian Roulette gods allowed that one endangered firefighter to keep the radio that day.

And so it goes. Just like in broadcasting, the "digital revolution" in two-way radio communication is turning out to be a cholocate covered turd. The real intent was making a handful of people a whole bunch of money selling something that didn't work as promised.

[lastone]

Can you he__ _e _ow? _ello? He__o?

Just add a few hundred thousand missing pixels and you got DTV !

The most unreliable excuse for a broadcast medium ever created. (And some contend only created to force you to "Pay TV" in some form anyway)

My reception tower will start at 20 feet....just to get a picture from the towers I can see at night ! OTA TV my die from this. Or is that the intent?

[sportsvoice]

Anyone who has ever tried to use a cell phone for a remote broadcast could have told them that the audio would be terrible. The vocoders in digital comm devices are designed only to encode speech sounds. Anything that's not speech (i.e. music, crowd noise, etc.) will come out all garbled up on the other end.

Therefore, I won't use a crowd mic on a ball game remote if it's on a cell phone. That's also why I carry a long spool of phone wire...I will string up a few hundred feet of cable to a coach's office phone rather than do a game on cell. At least on a hard line you get digitized by straight 8-bit 8kHz sampling as opposed to a vocoder. Run a little EQ and turn on the hi-low boost switch on the Zercom and it's tolerable.

*sigh* Ahh for the days of analog bag phones...

[Dave Loudin]

Just add a few hundred thousand missing pixels and you got DTV !

The most unreliable excuse for a broadcast medium ever created. (And some contend only created to force you to "Pay TV" in some form anyway)

My reception tower will start at 20 feet....just to get a picture from the towers I can see at night ! OTA TV my die from this. Or is that the intent?

I've had great luck with a "fringe" (forget model #) RatShack antenna in the attic. However, I would be SOL at my parent's house in Sutton. Not that it's any different tnat trying to get analog NTSC TV there...

[TimeEnuf]

Hoosier Daddy

You nailed the subject quite well.

As for the original system designer, WV's former public safety frequency coordinator, Fred Smart, had his hands in it.
He is no longer involved with the project, since taking a job with a consulting firm out of PA.

In the Kanawha Valley, if ever there were a true emergency, the system would vapor lock in the first ten minutes. There are too many mobile units in the field, for the amount of equipment at the two existing sites(Malden Mtn and Garfield). It doesn't help either that Metro 911 had the ability to patch the existing analog channels directly to the WVIRP.

[Hoosier Daddy]

I forgot to mention that Homeland Security money and flag-waving are responsible for a lot of the "interoperability" talk you hear nowadays. But "interoperability" has been taken to an extreme not ever necessary. For example, WHY does a road grader operator for the Ohio Department of Transportation in Ironton need to talk to a Sanitarian for the Cuyahoga County Health Department in Cleveland? Under Ohio's MARCS system (a system more complete than West Virginia's WVIRP network) it's possible -- and yes, the taxpayers wrote the check that allowed it to happen. With MARCS and WVIRP, you can talk to agencies and people you'll never want or need to communicate with, all in the name of "interoperability", -- but hey, isn't it nice to have that option??!?!

Interoperability requirements should be limited to frontline emergency responders. First, some dispatch frequencies could be paired for normal day-to-day operations. I don't understand why the St. Albans Police and Nitro Police are on different radio channels, since each department rarely has more than a couple of patrol cars on the road at any one time and each agency regularly backs the other up on serious calls. In the Huntington area, Ceredo and Kenova are another perfect example. Between these two small cities, there are NINE different analog radio frequencies in use: Two each (repeater system) for Ceredo's Police and Fire, one for Public Works, and two each (repeater system) for Kenova's Police and Fire. Ceredo has ONE police car on the road 24 hours a day and guess who backs them up? Hint: It begins with a "K". Fire and EMS in both cities have similar issues and mutual aid arrangements.

Using the same (or less) radio spectrum, law enforcement agencies in a particular area could combine dispatch channels, and Fire and EMS could do likewise. Then, use one or more of the vacated channels for simplex tactical or overflow traffic in the event of "the big one". All agencies would benefit by regularly monitoring and communicating with their nearest helping hands, and this would free up lightly used (but licensed and protected) radio channels for other nearby government entities. More interoperability on a daily basis. Fewer radio frequencies used. Maintain the analog system in place now. And most changes can be handled by simple reprogramming of existing equipment. Spare me the talk about the politics involved with making this change, because you'll have to come to a similar agreement anyway if you want to go digital and join WVIRP or MARCS -- except by aligning yourself with the state, you'll do as you're told and you'll have no voice in how the system operates or if it provides your city with reliable coverage.

These arrangements can be worked out on a regional basis, allowing neighboring police, fire, and EMS agencies to communicate with each other on a regular basis. Who else do these frontline responders really need to communicate with in a disaster? A school bus? A county-operated snow plow? The health department? A secretary in the Board of Elections? I will submit that (very occasional) radio contact with ANY of these ancillary agencies isn't worth junking your current analog radio system to participate in a statewide digital network. If communications is an issue, then install a base programmed for the school bus repeater system at the 9-1-1 center, or buy a couple of portable radios for the salt trucks to carry in the event they need to communicate directly with police or fire. Or get everyone's analog system on the same frequency band and just program everyone's channel in every radio. You don't need to "go digital" to accomplish that.

In over 15 years of following this stuff, I've never heard one good reason to destroy reliable, time-tested analog radio systems (like the West Virginia State Police's system at 42 MHz, or all the Metro 9-1-1 stuff in the 151-159 MHz band) and replace them with digital, trunked networks in the name of interoperability and disaster communication. The digital systems are so far-flung and dependent on the "network" backbone, they'll be the first to crash in a significant regional or statewide emergency situation, especially if a few primary links get taken out by weather or terrorism. By comparison, the locally situated and maintained analog systems are relatively bulletproof. And cheaper. Most are already in place and paid for.

[TimeEnuf]

Having had over 20+ years of involvement and design of the existing public safety analog systems in the Kanawha Valley, I once again agree with H-Daddy.
Your question concerning combining of agencies radio frequencies is good, but you overlook the obvious.
There is not a single Fire/Police chief willing to give up any part of their piece of turf, including airwaves.
Nitro and St. Albans FD's have been simulcasting their analog broadcasts since SA fire joined 911 system via a control station located at the SAFD reapeater site(unlicensed, by the way).
Do to limited console and manpower capacity in the old 911 center, it was the only way that SAFD could join in to the 911 system.

Though I have no direct knowlege, I think that the PD's radio systems of SA and Nitro are now linked and simulcasted.

I always thought that it was amusing that SAFD felt that Nitro's repeater system would not give them adequete coverage of their city, even though one of the county's fire channels is on the same tower as Nitro's fire repeater ....... and it covers West Side of SA, Tornado, Lakewood and many parts of Alum Creek quite well for the volunteers.
When asked, why don't you take your calls on the county volunteer system(a frequency they already had programmed in their radios), the answer was NO. "We will not be dispatched on the same radio system as the volunteers."
Need I say more?

It's all about power and politics at the local level.

The amount of Homeland security money that has been spent on the WVIRP is astonomical............. and what is there to show for it?........ the larger question is, what does Motorola and the WV Motorola Dealers have to show for this project?

high profit margins!

[Hoosier Daddy]

Your question concerning combining of agencies radio frequencies is good, but you overlook the obvious.

Not overlooked. Understood. Homeland Security money would have been better spent forcing (for lack of a better word) all these little fiefdoms to share and share alike and build a better analog infrastructure using existing equipment and frequencies, especially in the Kanawha Valley, where every public safety entity already uses 150-160 MHz.

You could choose not to participate, but then you'd get no Homeland Security money and no new toys.

If you'll notice, EVERY interoperability sales pitch always concludes with the "need" to change to a different frequency band, whether it's UHF, 700 MHz, or 800 MHz.

Coincidence? Nope. Not at all. Now they can sell you a new everything!

The fleecing of America, brought to you by Motorola.

[TimeEnuf]

I think that I am sorry that I read this original post (Thanks, Jerry!).

It has brought up a lot of stuff that I have tried to forget.

This whole WVIRP has been a pet peeve of mine since it's inception.

It is one of a few reasons why I left the public safety world behind, in favor of a lower paying, less stressful life as a broadcast engineer.

The need of interoperorability was solved with the invention of the programable radios twenty + years ago. The problem has been getting the end users to change the channel on their radio, if they could not communicate with who they needed to at the time.

It gets back to having an SOP(standard operating proceedure) in place.

I once was told by a policeman that his life was endangered because he could not make contact with Metro on his channel. My response was, you had me program 70+ channels in your radio, and you didn't have enough sense to try a different channel ? Why did you have me put all of those other channels in your radio?

The WVIRP does take the end user's need to change channels out of the picture, but it becomes a moot point, if you are not understood on the other end, or you get an out of range signal.


The existing public safety analog systems may not be perfect, but they are a lot less bullet proof than the WVIRP.
Give me a crystal controlled VHF/UHF analog PL/DPL repeater, over a digital, microprocessor controlled radio system anyday.

[genlock]

T-43, Prog-line, Carfone.

[Hoosier Daddy]

T-43, Prog-line, Carfone.

Pre-prog, Motran, Mocom 10, Dynamotors.

Micor, Mastr II, Royal Exec, Motrac, Mocom 70, Maxar, MVP, SuperFleetfone.

[genlock]

Motorola now owned by Yaesu.
Ge, owned be Ericson, now by Nokia, I think.

Aerotron lunchbox, Ht-200.

[Hoosier Daddy]

GE Mobile Communications, bought by Ericsson, then sold to an unknown called Com-Net, who sold to Tyco Electronics. This was one of many Jack Welch corporate hatchet jobs. The buy and sell frenzy happened in rapid succession from about 1990 to 2003, effectively destroying GE's expansive network of factory-authorized mom and pop radio shops and gutting the reputation and product line of the finest two-way radios ever made.

Tyco now markets the limited (mostly EDACS trunking stuff) product line as "M/A-COM".

Johnson Messenger, MT500, GE MPI, Mastr Pro, Regency BTL Series, GE PortaMobil II, MH10, Mitrek

[Big Media]

The most unreliable excuse for a broadcast medium ever created. (And some contend only created to force you to "Pay TV" in some form anyway)

My reception tower will start at 20 feet....just to get a picture from the towers I can see at night ! OTA TV my die from this. Or is that the intent?

I have had no trouble with OTA reception of DTV signals, except for PBS. For some reason, WPBY-DT does not come in all that well to the east end of Huntington.

I have spoken to several MSOs who say they have either began or have completed signal testing. So far, no issues with the transition.

On the other hand, I have also spoken to a few families who are upset about their new "cable box". I love it when they call it that. 99.99% of the time, the problem isn't with the box, but it is with the high-gain, directional VHF antenna they are using to pull in a UHF signal. They will go all out for some jalopy apparatus 15 element VHF antenna rather than going with a simple $50 amplified UHF antenna, which is no larger than the size of a kitchen plate.

[lastone]

I have had no trouble with OTA reception of DTV signals, except for PBS. For some reason, WPBY-DT does not come in all that well to the east end of Huntington.

That is interesting. Here in B'ville, 33 is the most solid. 3 drops out the most, but 13 is better. All come and go.

....the problem isn't with the box, but it is with the high-gain, directional VHF antenna they are using to pull in a UHF signal.

It was "late in the game" when anyone said anything about having to have a NEW antenna. An old roof top VHF was said to do if it had UHF elements too. My sister a block away has such a brute. At about 10 miles from 3,13 and 33, her signal should be solid. It's worse than mine.

Yes, the picture is GREAT when it's there. (if there's no trains, trucks or rain nearby or my dog doesn't fart )

[Big Media]

Yes, the picture is GREAT when it's there. (if there's no trains, trucks or rain nearby or my dog doesn't fart )