Local Digital TV Subchannels

[genlock]

WSAZ has one.
WTAP has 2.
WVVA has 1.
WTRF has 2, I think.

This is an absolutely a gift to the TV stations and the sales departments.
Anybody have any idea why the rest of the stations don't even try??

[AmpedNow]

I actually dread the network subchannels, because it's only a matter of time before this is used as an excuse to make Dish and Direct drop distant networks. After all, there will be virtually no "short" markets left, they will argue.

And the rest of us in small markets will be completely stuck with shithouse TV... Like that one ABC affiliate in southern WV who still has a mono HD feed...

/rant

[Mr. Tom Jones]

WSAZ has one.
WTAP has 2.
WVVA has 1.
WTRF has 2, I think.

WTRF only has one transmitting (at the moment). Rumors abound about their plans. AFAIK, WTOV has one, the NBC Weather Plus channel.

In Pittsburgh, WPXI does have two. They're running the NBC Weather Plus channel, plus Nostaglia TV, I think. That channel has programming resembling TV Land. WTAE has a Hearst version of Weather Plus. I don't think KD has one.

[Dave Loudin]

What happens with cable carriage of subchannels that are network affiliates? No HD ever (meaning the cable co demuxes the OTA digital stream however it's piped in) or will/do stations provide an HD feed directly to the cable co?

[Mr. Tom Jones]

What happens with cable carriage of subchannels that are network affiliates?

Dave,

That's the $64,000,000 question, give or take a few $100,000,000.

When you think about it, the digital TV subchannels turn the OTA TV stations into mini-cable operators. Rest assured that bean counters at OTA TV stations are busy trying to figure out how to screw the cable companies over for increased carriage fees for carrying their digital subchannels. The bean counters at the cable operators are busy trying to figure out how to screw the OTA TV stations over for decreased carriage fees -- by saying they're not required to carry the digital subchannels. Out of all of this, the one thing you can count on are a number of law firms racking up the billable hours.

This is one time when it's good not to be in management!

[fearpeddler]

wchs had one running for a year or so before saz started theirs up.... but like everything at wchs it was halfassed.

[Dave Loudin]

Well, yeah, there's the basic issue of whether a sub-channel gets placed on the cable. What I was wondering was what would a cable customer see if OTA channel n-2 carries FOX in nominal SD. Would football and NASCAR be in SD, or would the OTA channel provide an HD feed to the cable head end?

[Paradigm]

In the Wheeling area, Comcast carries WTRF's subchannel Fox Ohio Valley on both standard and HD. The problem is that they are down converting the HD to SD and it is causing terrible sound and video at times. On the otherhand during the Superbowl I got better picture quality off of the SD channel than I did the HD. But, this is a WVMH channel so its bound to be screwed up anyway. Comcast dropped Fox53 out of Pittsburgh(an actual good channel) to carry WTRF-2

[Dr. Whiplash]

Comcast dropped Fox53 out of Pittsburgh(an actual good channel) to carry WTRF-2

Suddenlink Parkersburg kept WVAH, adding WTAP-Fox at ch 14.
TV gurus, are there must carry/exclusivity rules for these subchannels?

[djMatty]

I think its up to the cable systems and their agreements with the OTA channels.

I know time warner here in Columbus OH has the NBC4 Weather Plus, the WOSU TV sub channels and MYTV which is a sub channel of ABC6 (I think) they are all on the digital lineup but we have them for watching.

[Big Media]

Someone correct me if I am wrong. There are many facets of this and I don't always have it straight.

First, we must distinguish between Must Carry and Retransmission Consent. They are two separate animals. A station can either claim "must carry," which forces the cable operator to pass through an airable signal to all the subscribers within the DMA. Or, a station can claim "retransmission consent," which requires cable operators to pay cash to the broadcaster for the retransmission of their signal. Network stations such as NBC, CBS, etc. have programming that is in demand by the viewing public. Therefore, since they have a leg to stand on, they have the clout to require cable operators to pay for play. Thus, you have, every two years or so, a hodgepodge of stations negotiating with cable systems an appropriate fee. Naturally, the cable operator wants to pay next to nothing, and the GMs at the local net affiliates believe their channel is single-handedly responsible for every cable subscriber who subscribes to cable and attempts to convince the cable operator that they will loose customers like refugees of war if they do not carry said station.

Now, having said that, Must Carry only applies to the digital main channel (or the channel that is simulcast in both analog and digital). There is no such animal, at least now, as must carry for the digital subs.

Therefore, in the case of WTAP vs. WVAH, each carriage agreement is negotiated separately and are non-exclusive (unless one party or the other made the agreement exclusive). They is how you can have an out of market Fox and an in market subFox, if you will, with duplicate coverage on a system.

It is also important to point out that retransmission consent that is granted to a cable operator for WXYZ-TV does not automatically apply to WXYZ-DT. Therefore, when the analogs go away in 2009, cable systems will have to have already negotiated carriage for each and every DT or it will go dark until an agreement is reached. Most are already on the ball, but some lag.

Further, cable operators are calling on the FCC to institute a "quiet time" whereby television stations must back off the cable operators and allow them to carry over the analog agreements while they negotiate retransmission consent for the digitals (until June 1, 2009). More on "quiet time" is located here:

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6558148.html

Speaking of all of this, where the hell is SamC? I have not seen a SamC post in a long time. This is usually his territory.

[Mr. Tom Jones]

Big Media, thanks for jumping in on the must-carry rules.

Paradigm, I've seen first-hand that Comcast is messing with at least one signal an OTA station is putting out -- at least in a smaller market. I've checked with colleagues in the 'Burgh, and it appears that, for the moment, Comcast has not dared to mess with their signals.

As Big Media noted, things will get very interesting when the analog signals go away for good. Perhaps SamC can amplify on this a bit.

[tvchick]

Comcast dropped Fox53 out of Pittsburgh(an actual good channel) to carry WTRF-2

Suddenlink Parkersburg kept WVAH, adding WTAP-Fox at ch 14.
TV gurus, are there must carry/exclusivity rules for these subchannels?

As stations add secondary digital channels (public TV in my state has 4 at times) many are mandating carriage when they renew retrans consent. Usually those secondary channels end up on the high digital tier on cable systems.

The more secondary channels you have, the less bandwith you can give to your main channel. While public TV here has four subchannels, often they cut back to just one secondary when the main channel is broadcasting in HD.

[Dave Loudin]

The more secondary channels you have, the less bandwith you can give to your main channel. While public TV here has four subchannels, often they cut back to just one secondary when the main channel is broadcasting in HD.

WETA-DT in DC used to operate this way. Now, Nyquist be damned, they run "HD" plus three SD subchannels all the time.

[sportsvoice]

PBS "HD" here looks like bad webcam video thanks to all the useless subchannels.

[Kitesgot]

On the otherhand during the Superbowl I got better picture quality off of the SD channel than I did the HD. But, this is a WVMH channel so its bound to be screwed up anyway.

If that was the case, you don't have, or have never had HD at all. To me----when i get ready to watch an HD channel, and it isn't IN HD, I rethink my entire watching process.

So----you said the SD channel, was as good as the HD channel? Have you ever really SEEN HD?

I'm not being an asshole or smart-ass about this----but I've run across a LOT of new video-techies that have NO idea how to work their own TV sets, or the difference in resoulution. It FUCKING AMAZES me how many people go out, get a brand new plasma---or LCD-TV------hook up their box to it with an SD cable-----stretch the picture to fit the sc reen so everyone on screen has HUGE FAT HEADS------and the objects in the pictures are EXTREMELY wide!---and think that's what HD is all about.

It really DOES fucking amaze me.

P.S. Paradigmn-----this diatribe wasn't about you------it just reminded me of something that has maddened me now for 3 years------the proliferation of family and friends that have purchase expensive TV sets, turn it on, think they have something special, and unless you can talk them into setting it up for them------(because they think it's the bestest thing they've ever seen) you're liable to walk out of their house with a new 5,000 dollar TV-audio system that is in mono, the sub-woofer isn't on, the equalizer is set to "flat"------and the aspect ratio is "stretched" because EVEN THE FUCKING INSTALLERS DIDN'T KNOW TO HOOK IT UP TO HDMI, OR DVI, OR COMPOSITE VIDEO!-- JUST PUT IN THE SD CABLE AND STRETCH THE PICTURE TO MAKE IT FIT! AAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEE!~

[Big Media]

I'm not being an asshole or smart-ass about this----but I've run across a LOT of new video-techies that have NO idea how to work their own TV sets, or the difference in resoulution. It FUCKING AMAZES me how many people go out, get a brand new plasma---or LCD-TV------hook up their box to it with an SD cable-----stretch the picture to fit the sc reen so everyone on screen has HUGE FAT HEADS------and the objects in the pictures are EXTREMELY wide!---and think that's what HD is all about.

Yeah... and then they say stupid shit like "boy, that HD looks really good, doesn't it"?

-----the proliferation of family and friends that have purchase expensive TV sets, turn it on, think they have something special, and unless you can talk them into setting it up for them------(because they think it's the bestest thing they've ever seen) you're liable to walk out of their house with a new 5,000 dollar TV-audio system that is in mono, the sub-woofer isn't on, the equalizer is set to "flat"------and the aspect ratio is "stretched" because EVEN THE FUCKING INSTALLERS DIDN'T KNOW TO HOOK IT UP TO HDMI, OR DVI, OR COMPOSITE VIDEO!-- JUST PUT IN THE SD CABLE AND STRETCH THE PICTURE TO MAKE IT FIT!

Yeah... and then they say stupid shit like "boy, those HDMI cables are affuley expensive... I just use these yeller cables dat came wit my DVD player".

[Kitesgot]

Thank you Big Media----you see what I'm saying.

I was concerned that Paradigm would intrepret this as a slap against him---and his post had nothing to do with it.

I was just at a home the other evening-----in a very-upscale part of town in the family room with 30 foot ceilings. He had the same TV that I have. (I was only there for a very brief social occassion and don't even know who they were) BUT---there on their TV set-----was a STRETCHED PICTURE THAT FEATURED PEOPLE WITH BIG-FAT HEADS! AND ONE GUY SAID--- "THAT'S REALLY A GOOD PICTURE!!!"

I wanted to get up and punch the dumb-ass.

[Paradigm]

Trust me I've seen real HD and the point I was making was that the signal being put out by comast or WTRF depending on who is to blame as "HD" was not it was upscaled and was a poor attempt at it. On the SD channel my television doing the upscaling and stretching provided a better picture than what they were passing as "HD".

[Kitesgot]

It's really sad that broadcasters do that. There's enough confusion about HD with the folks that still have 19" TV sets, without telling them something that isn't true.

I hate TNT-HD-----they hardly EVER have a true HD proram on---except for the NBA-----but they stretch the screen to keep it full-----and THERE AGAIN ARE THE BIG-FAT-HEADED PEOPLE!