Analyst: Market-Size Revenue Gap Is 'Huge'

[Force Commander]

http://www.radioink.com/HeadlineEntry.a ... todaysnews

[Tom Taggart]

Sales folks in the big markets have gotten used to being order-takers.

Here in the small markets we have to beat the bushes and (gasp) actually go talk to potential advertisers.

No surprise that when the economy gets a little soft, the big city folks are in a panic, while down here it's business as usual and not bad at all, thank you!

[Bob Loblaw]

Tom, how much time do you spend in big markets to support your statement?

[Tom Taggart]

Have a partner who use to sell for KD

[Bob Loblaw]

Have a partner who use to sell for KD

How long ago was this, Tom?

[Tom Taggart]

up to 2003. Of course, each station or cluster is different, but certain attitudes can be universal across markets.

What else explains the gap between small and large markets? This "recession" if there is one, is regional, (mostly bi-coastal--Ohio and WV have been in deep doo-do for years) but there are big and small markets in every part of the country.

If we can keep old customers and add new business--and show year to year growth here in poor little backwoods northern WV, then well managed sales teams in the larger markets should be able to do the same.

[Bob Loblaw]

up to 2003. Of course, each station or cluster is different, but certain attitudes can be universal across markets.

Respectfully, Tom, the world, and the marketplace, has drastically changed in the last 5 years.

The point in my questions, is that I've worked for 2 major companies, in 2 major markets since 2001, and I can tell you for a fact, that there were no "order takers" at any of those stations. As a matter of fact, every AE had a certain quota of local business that they had to bring in. So your attitude of "Here in the small markets we have to beat the bushes and (gasp) actually go talk to potential advertisers. No surprise that when the economy gets a little soft, the big city folks are in a panic, while down here it's business as usual and not bad at all, thank you!" is surprisingly ignorant.

As a matter of fact, in certain CC buildings (DC, Pittsburgh, San Fran, etc), AEs are not allowed to be in the building, unless they're there for a meeting, between the hours of 10a-4p. They are expected to be on the streets, selling. To LOCAL businesses.

And it's been that way for some time now, Tom.

My take on why small markets are bringing in more dollars? Pretty simple: Lower overhead.

In other words: Fewer bodies doing more of the work.

-When someone does middays and produces all the Imaging, then tracks nights on another station in the cluster, and is the MD for two stations. Oh, and because their pay is so low, they also tracks two other stations out of market (taking jobs away from other people).
-When PD's have to be PD's of so many stations that they get called "Operations Managers."
-When Asst Traffic Managers double as Night Jocks
-When it's cheaper/easier to track in talent from major markets (btw: this is now happening in Top 20 markets, see: Y100/Miami, or any station that gets the Seacrest cram down that starts next month)
-When there is no one manning the ship on the weekends
-When syndicated morning shows are a given, not an option
-When a Production Director quits, and a PD (who only has one fulltimer on staff now) is told that he cannot replace the current Production Director because "It's not in the budget"
-When if there is even the slightest increase in a budgetary item, PDs are told to not only cut it, but then, to do without.

You want more examples, Tom?

THIS is the state of small market radio. I know it because I voice these stations and I talk to these PDs and I hear their complaints and frustrations.

If you and your crew in "poor little backwoods northern WV" have done a better job than what I've stated above, then you should be running the NAB. Because clearly, everyone else is wrong, and you are right.



But...about being in "poor little backwoods northern WV".

I was in Milton last weekend for my Daughter's final basketball game. I dreaded being there. I've gotten really used to...as you might put it: "livin' in tha BIG CITY!" Yet surprisingly, the Red Roof Inn I stayed at had a solid tmobile wifi connection the entire time, which was great, because my daughter loves playing games on my Mac. And I was surprised to see how much "connectivity" had happened since the last time I'd been around. Again, maybe that's just the "city slicker" coming out in me, but I was really happy to see technology starting to creep up into an area that I still hold a fondness for.

Then...the really funny part. I had lunch sunday with a dear friend. It was at a Mexican restaurant in S. Charleston. The two Hispanic guys working the front register were both on laptop computers. One a Mac, one a Dell. For whatever reason, a Hispanic male > In S. Charleston, WV > On a Mac...was fascinating to me. When we went to leave, I realized one of them was using an iPhone. That was the LAST thing I expected to see in WV. Especially by a hispanic male in S. Charleston, WV.

Tom, the point is this: After seeing the Mac, and the iPhone, I thought: what radio station in this market is serving his needs? If he has the money for such high dollar items as a Mac and an iPhone, some advertiser should be courting him. But they aren't. Nobody is. He's probably getting everything he could possibly want from the internet. And most likely, it's probably free of advertising.

So please, Tom, continue patting yourself on the back about how you're growing your business year after year in "poor little backwoods northern WV". But at some point, technology will creep up on you, and then...there won't be anyone left to advertise to.

[Cameron]

The two Hispanic guys working the front register were both on laptop computers. One a Mac, one a Dell. For whatever reason, a Hispanic male > In S. Charleston, WV > On a Mac...was fascinating to me. When we went to leave, I realized one of them was using an iPhone. That was the LAST thing I expected to see in WV. Especially by a hispanic male in S. Charleston, WV.

Online shopping perhaps?

More restaurant customers reporting credit-card fraud
Someone has made about $30,000 in fraudulent charges on the credit and debit cards of people who dined at a Mexican restaurant in Hurricane, police said.
By Alison Knezevich
Staff writer

Someone has made about $30,000 in fraudulent charges on the credit and debit cards of people who dined at a Mexican restaurant in Hurricane, police said.
Between 10 and 15 people have alleged that unauthorized purchases were made with their cards after they used them at Mi Pueblito on Hurricane Creek Road, said Detective David Campbell of the Hurricane Police Department.
The purchases - which were made at locations including California, Arizona and Mexico City - range from about $30 to $4,000, Campbell said.
Police are investigating restaurant employees and other people, he said: "We're investigating everyone that ties into that restaurant."
Detectives started investigating the claims in January after someone filed a police report, he said. Then, officials at a local bank told Campbell they had received other complaints from customers who used credit cards at Mi Pueblito.

Hispanics in Charleston using alternative media...crap.
There goes somewhere between .02% and N/A in your Arbitron ratings.

[Dr. Whiplash]

My take on why small markets are bringing in more dollars? Pretty simple: Lower overhead. In other words: Fewer bodies doing more of the work.

-When someone does middays and produces all the Imaging, then tracks nights on another station in the cluster, and is the MD for two stations. Oh, and because their pay is so low, they also tracks two other stations out of market (taking jobs away from other people).
-When PD's have to be PD's of so many stations that they get called "Operations Managers."
-When Asst Traffic Managers double as Night Jocks
-When it's cheaper/easier to track in talent from major markets (btw: this is now happening in Top 20 markets, see: Y100/Miami, or any station that gets the Seacrest cram down that starts next month)
-When there is no one manning the ship on the weekends
-When syndicated morning shows are a given, not an option
-When a Production Director quits, and a PD (who only has one fulltimer on staff now) is told that he cannot replace the current Production Director because "It's not in the budget"
-When if there is even the slightest increase in a budgetary item, PDs are told to not only cut it, but then, to do without.

Tom downsized his on-air staff years ago - both stations are 100% satellite. It can't be that tough to scrounge sufficient advertising dollars from hamlets to keep your operation going when you have only one or two non-revenue-producing employees.

Knowing a lot about legal and technical issues and operating stations that are tangible assets to the communities they claim to serve are two very different things.

[Bob Campbell]

I can tell you this about large markets. The largest markets I've worked in (Detroit, Boston, Pittsburgh) had the most professional sales staffs of any stations I've worked. They were also held most accountable. In Pittsburgh, with CBS(Infinity at the time), we hired 6 new AEs. To 3 billers after 90 days got to keep their jobs. They were humpin' it.
Anecdotally, in my experience, the professionalism of the sales staffs declined in steep order the smaller the market.

[Lester]

So what I'm seeing here is Tom getting jumped because a radio industry report says "his" market is doing better than "your" market?

And Whiplash thinks this has happened because Tom's stations are automated.

And Loblaw thinks this has happened because they don't sell iPods in St. Mary's.

(And Cameron is bragging that hispanics only make up .02% of his population. )

[herdgirl72]

That would be in Cameron's specific household!!

[Bob Loblaw]

So what I'm seeing here is Tom getting jumped because a radio industry report says "his" market is doing better than "your" market?

Nope. I was taking up for co-workers who do the same kind of door to door sales as Tom's. Especially when he used long since outdated characterizations.

[AmpedNow]

I hear them Messicans are good at busting padlocks in plain sight...

[Arp2]

You know what's really great about this thread, in my meager and humble opinion?


It's that everybody is at least 70.7106781% right....

....including me with this post.

(That's kinda funny if you know what to do with the math....)


Better talents (both sellers and buyers) tend toward places where bigger rewards are available, and better talents tend to make what they're doing look relatively effortless and easy.

At the same time, though, when compared against the number of eyes and ears in a market, the bigger places don't have all that many more media outlets than the smaller places, making the demand for and value of their avails that much greater and creating, semi-fairly or semi-unfairly, the perception that "order-taking" is what "they" are doing "up there." They're not...they're working their tails off with almost certainly unrealistic goals and even occasional redefinitions of what "my list" means.

On the other hand, smaller markets are never going to see the kind of demand on their supply that comes every November, February, and May from pay-almost-anything-to-get-on local and network TV buys. Or cable TV. Or new movies or DVD or CD releases. Or websites. Or mass transit. Or airlines competing on identical routes. Or car brands (versus individual dealers with some co-op). Or department and big-box stores with a dozen locations in the market who find us a quick and easy buy for "one day" or "doorbuster" sales that can't be advertised in the Sunday paper that "everybody" gets. Or competing malls and "lifestyle centers" at Christmas. Or breakfast at a dozen competing quick-serve chain restaurants that exist and compete so hard because commutes are well over an hour and growing and could probably be done faster on bike. Or the new waterpark or the latest "special event" at the zoo or any of a number of recreation and entertainment outlets. Or institutional or general image advertising for businesses or brands. Or gubmint agencies willing to drop five or six or seven figures in big markets while asking for the same exposure in small markets for free. There are umpteen things that locate -- and advertise -- in larger markets that simply don't exist in or near smaller markets. The converse is true, too, but they don't and won't come close to matching.

But AEs in smaller markets just aren't going to face the pressure and pressures their bigger-market cohorts do. Your car really should be one of the luxury brands and, unless you're in one of the cities with "Big Three" plants, probably not a domestic. A $5,000 work wardrobe is pretty much the price of admission at the entry/rookie level, you better be ramping to $10+ regularly and quickly, and you'll be much better off if you take it to $20. Your accessories should all be above the 80th percentile or so; and, for the pen you offer to your clients to sign on the bottom line, a month's food budget for a family is okay, but two months' is better. You'll have time for few friends outside of work (you should "write your proposals on your own time"), so you better be prepared to socialize with your other sales and management coworkers....and your spouse has to fit, or your progress will slow or end (and slow or no progress means you'll be going soon). SIngle? You'll have to be sure to bring someone to every event such that there aren't any awkward "third/fifth-wheel" moments, and it won't look good if it's somebody different every time. By the way, though your other sales and management coworkers will make up the bulk of your social circle, not a one of them will be your actual friend, nor you theirs. If you actually go all the way to "friendship," you will be seen as having made a mistake and as being unqualified for anything more.

In smaller markets, good community involvement is, of course, strongly recommended and is probably part of the job; in larger markets, you'll be asked, "what recognizable organization that you're already a part of can you be leading the fundraising and be receiving press for within 1-2 years, and what's your plan to make that happen sooner rather than later and break all the records?"

In smaller markets, pressure will be generally fair and reasonable for such a performance-based job, and you'll probably be evaluated by a handful of quantitative and qualitative measures...in larger markets, the pressure will be stunning, and you can double or triple the available quantitative measures. You'll question the relevance of some. Tough...they'll count. Your managers will probably be much more afraid for their jobs than you are yours, so everything will count, for everything is a possible reason to use you to retain a job awhile longer. After all, though both small and large markets feel very excited and fortunate to find and have great sales talent, the bigs have another 1-10 million people and 100-1000 companies from which to recruit or poach it, and "bringing along a promising recruit who's about to take off" just might give an SM another couple of months to try to get everything and everybody else to where they need to be....especially if that newbie is a hot and vivacious blonde.

In this business at this date, there's only one company that has it really pretty good right now and only a few (smaller, for the most part) more that have things not too terribly bad; in all the rest, regardless of impressions or rumors or perceptions, there's nobody who's having an easy -- or even fairly relaxed -- time of it today. Everybody at every level is doing far more than or far different from what he or she ever wanted or expected.

Even though some or many of us will have to compete strongly against each other for our survival, it really isn't the time for any of us to be attacking our own in any part of the building or others' buildings or markets. It's time to stick up for all ourselves and our industry. It's time to see ourselves as running in a Reagan Republican primary and never speak ill of another radio person, station, market, or company in public.

Well, maybe some companies.....

[Mr. Tom Jones]

PMFJI, but a look at things from the TV side of the house might prove interesting.

I personally know of one AE who was pulling down $100K in a smaller market -- but he was hustling. In the smaller TV markets, the problem is that much of the advertising market is tapped out, and things become a zero-sum game. Regional/national TV spot advertising isn't what it used to be. Even is one is on a system that rewards for total billing, the numbers don't add up well. The AEs tend not to stick around as they used to.

I think WBOY has an AE position open even as I type...