Arizona shooting... continued...

[CoolBreeze]

Starting a new topic on the subject because it's buried in another topic that has nothing to do with this shooting.

To start with, the local Arizona sheriff had no business trying to connect this crazy bastard with talk radio, the Tea party, Sarah Palin, or anyone else. Due to his comments, the media ran with that angle. Fact is that any crazy bastard who shoots little kids has no connection to ANYTHING. They're just batshit crazy! And the sad thing is that much of the time, these people are known WELL in advance, as this article shows:


After high school, Loughner showed growing signs of mental instability. By last summer, when he was a student in an elementary algebra class at Tucson's Pima Community College, he was a terrifying presence for both teachers and students.

A student in the class, Lynda Sorenson, 52, said she was immediately worried about Loughner. She said Loughner sat in class with a crazed-looking grin and she had seen him walking in tight circles, around and around, in the school courtyard. She feared that Loughner might become violent, and she would have to flee - concerns she shared with friends and family in a series of e-mails.

"We do have one student in the class who was disruptive today," Sorenson wrote on June 1. "He scares me a bit . . . Hopefully he will be out of class very soon, and not come back with an automatic weapon."

Ten days later, Sorenson was writing about Loughner again: "Class isn't dull as we have a seriously disturbed student in the class, and they are trying to figure out how to get rid of him before he does something bad."

Sorenson's fears grew more acute four days after that, when her e-mail said that "we have a mentally unstable person in the class that scares the living crap out of me. He is one of those whose picture you see on the news, after he has come into class with an automatic weapon. Everyone interviewed would say, Yeah, he was in my math class and he was really weird."

"I sit by the door with my purse handy," the e-mail continued. "If you see it on the news one night, know that I got out fast."

The instructor of the class, Benjamin McGahee was no less concerned. "I always felt, you know, somewhat paranoid," McGahee said. "When I turned my back to write on the board, I would always turn back quickly - to see if he had a gun."

McGahee said Loughner disrupted his very first class by yelling, "How can you deny math instead of accepting it?" In later classes, he shouted, listened to his MP3 player and wrote nonsensical answers on his tests. One said "Eat Sleep Brush Teeth Math."

McGahee said he sought repeatedly for college officials to remove Loughner, but they did not.

"They just said, 'Well, he hasn't taken any action to hurt anyone. He hasn't provoked anybody. He hasn't brought any weapons to class,' " McGahee recalled. " 'We'll just wait until he takes that next step.' "

College officials did not respond to questions about McGahee's account on Sunday. After about three weeks of class, McGahee said, there was a final confrontation: Loughner arrived and pointed to a copy of the U.S. Constitution on the wall.

" 'You're violating my First Amendment right of free speech,' " McGahee recalled him saying."That's when I went to go get the dean." A college official came, and Loughner was removed permanently from the class.

He was not suspended from the school for another few weeks, until college officials discovered Sept. 29 that he had posted a video on YouTube calling the college "unconstitutional." After that, Loughner agreed to withdraw.

Loughner posted a series of other videos on YouTube, in which he espoused bizarre and often incoherent arguments about mind control, grammar and government abuses. In another video, which he listed as a "favorite," a hooded figure burns an American flag in the desert, while on the soundtrack a hard-rock singer shrieks, "Let the bodies hit the floor!"

In one of the videos, Loughner referenced applying to join the U.S. Army. He was rejected for Army service in 2008, Army officials said. A military official who spoke on condition of anonymity said that Loughner failed because of drugs. It was unclear, however, if he had failed urinalysis testing or if his drug history or related questioning led to his rejection.

http://www.dailymail.com/News/201101091 ... uild=cache

[Lester]

If the same people that blame it on Sarah Palin/Talk Radio/Tea Party are also willing to attach it to TV violence, video games and rap music... then I'm OK with that.

[Jay Nunley]

If the same people that blame it on Sarah Palin/Talk Radio/Tea Party are also willing to attach it to TV violence, video games and rap music... then I'm OK with that.

On this point I couldn't agree more.

I think political discourse in the U.S. is shit now because of the people you mentioned above and the people who waste time arguing with them, but to say it is why this fuck shot the place up is as stupid as the claims that heavy metal caused suicides and drove people to murder children.

[Bob Campbell]

If the same people that blame it on Sarah Palin/Talk Radio/Tea Party are also willing to attach it to TV violence, video games and rap music... then I'm OK with that.

On this point I couldn't agree more.

I think political discourse in the U.S. is shit now because of the people you mentioned above and the people who waste time arguing with them, but to say it is why this fuck shot the place up is as stupid as the claims that heavy metal caused suicides and drove people to murder children.

Sorry guys, I disagree. This guy was a nut bag no doubt. But I would not be a bit surprised to find a guy like that influenced by people who put gunsight cross hairs over a candidate in a political ad, or talk about how such and such a politician "has to be stopped". That kind of discourse is a thinly disguised call to action. Nowhere do tv shows, games, etc. tell people to take action against real people. To say that the current brand of talk radio entertainment and beltway vitriol has no influence over these nuts is naive at best.

[Lester]

And I totally expected you too, Bob. I don't recall you speaking out on Air America, MoveOn, or ACORN "calls to action".

A former schoolmate says he was a liberal pothead. I guess Palin sold him the dope.

[CoolBreeze]

But I would not be a bit surprised to find a guy like that influenced by people who put gunsight cross hairs over a candidate in a political ad, or talk about how such and such a politician "has to be stopped".

So you're saying that all the movies about killing politicians have NO influence on a guy like this but talk radio (or the like) would? You're saying that all the violent video games would be just a game to him but a cross hair in a political ad might? After all... liberals defend THAT kind of "virtual violence" with their very lives.

And what about Ft Hood? When the Arab killed those people and OBAMA told everyone"let's NOT jump to conclusions about this shooting before we have all the facts". And THAT after they had some history on the guy!

I guess if you're Arab or a minority and kill people, we simply cant jump to conclusions. But if you're a crazy White guy then it's perfectly FINE to jump to all the stupid conclusions you want.

yea... that's America all over...

[AmpedNow]

Stern has weighed in on this...

http://www.examiner.com/howard-stern-in ... ock-her-up

"Up on Sarah Palin’s website is a big scope with a gun crosshairs and Gabrielle’s name and ‘go to Arizona and go find her in your crosshairs’ Now come on, I mean, what are we talking about here? This woman wants to be President of the United States? If she becomes President of the United States we’re f---ed. She’s a f---ing loon."

Again, I can agree in hindsight that it might have been poor taste... But crosshairs have been used in political symbolism since the founding of this country.

She wasn't deliberately inciting this kind of violence. I wonder if they've asked this nut if Sarah Palin's crosshairs map made him do it...

[Jay Nunley]

There is no question all this "firearm" rhetoric is goofy and stupid and possibly in poor taste. However, the idea that all of this lowest common denominator spew is a thinly veiled and intentional call to action just doesn't ring true.

Sarah Palin is interested in cashing in on feeding her people the kind of words and image they want from her. Is it vapid, insipid, and poorly done? Yes. Is it a real call to arms and suggestion of violence? No.

Right wing talk radio is much the same. If Rush Limbaugh was made rich and famous by doing a radio show about deep sea fishing it would be stupid of him to one day start doing a show about mountain climbing. His audience wants validation. He gives it to them. His audience wants to be told they are always right and liberals are always wrong and they want the twisted, half truth analysis that goes along with it. He gives it to them. I've heard him say that democrats hate America dozens of times. His audience wants "the other side" to be demonized. He gives it to them.

Is this sort of thing (Palin, Limbaugh, et al) damaging to discourse and discussion? Probably, but it is not advocacy of violence (except for douchebags like Ted Nugent).

One caller to a talk show we do here wants Palin and others charged with sedition. This reminds me of being called a traitor and being accused of treason for daring to disagree with President Bush.

It tells me there is just no talking to or reasoning with bought in, blinders on right wingers OR left wingers. Unfortunately, these people are the loudest and the most covered political animals.

[CoolBreeze]

THE GUY WAS A CERTIFIABLE BATSHIT CRAZY BASTARD. NO MORE... NO LESS. AND THERE ARE THOUSANDS MORE LIKE HIM WALKING THE STREETS. THE END.

[Jay Nunley]

THE GUY WAS A CERTIFIABLE BATSHIT CRAZY BASTARD. NO MORE... NO LESS.

Yes.

[Dave Allen]

Nunley referenced our local talk show so I will throw this out. Last week I was hosting and we had a seemingly normal gentleman call up. The guy is one of what I call my "road warriors"...a on-the-road saleman who will call up with road reports frequently since he travels throughout the tri-state region as a office supply tech. I had posed the question to my listeners is a lot of the hatred and venom directed toward Barrack Obama racially motivated (of course it is, but that's another story). Now let me state I DON'T think that disagreeing with Obama makes you a racist. The things I think are racially motivated are statements like "this guy" must be stopped and "he isn't one of us". Anyway, this otherwise normal, productive member of society went on a screaming rampage at the mere mention of his name. It was so bad that I could not get a word in edgewise. I bring this up because I feel this is where we are in America. The days of civil discussion are over and BOTH sides are to blame. I agree with the others...this guy in Arizona was a certified nut job, however there are more of these people out there than ever before because of the political climate in America.

[Bob Campbell]

THE GUY WAS A CERTIFIABLE BATSHIT CRAZY BASTARD. NO MORE... NO LESS.

Yes.

In all seriousness, one thing this guy is not, is insane. And that's not just me talking. I spoke with several police officers on my show yesterday and not a one thought he was nuts. He logically planned, in advance, this incident. Crazy people don't do that. They're not capable of it. He knew exactly what he was doing and how to achieve his goal. No doubt he is troubled, but no way is he insane. Though that's what he'll plead. He's not crazy, he's evil. Tim McVeigh wasn't crazy. The Unabomber wasn't crazy, the 9-eleven terrorists weren't crazy. They believed in what they were doing.

And back to the shared culpability. Here's the difference between movies, tv, games, music, etc. and heated political rhetoric and talk radio. The former are all fictional. The latter are real people making real (albeit hidden in code phrases like "must be stopped") calls to action against other real people.
This guy didn't shoot the Congresswoman solely because he saw an ad with cross hairs ( or, as a Palin spokesoman so eloquently back pedaled on Faux News yesterday, "surveyor's markings"), but to think it may not have had some influence over the guy is, as I said earlier, naive. The volume of Palin's silence on the issue speaks for itself.

[genlock]

He was nuts.

[Jay Nunley]

Here's the difference between movies, tv, games, music, etc. and heated political rhetoric and talk radio. The former are all fictional.

The volume of Palin's silence on the issue speaks for itself

Good points.

"

surveyor's markings"

Really? This really happened? He really said that? Holy hell. That's more poorly done that what usually comes out of the Palin camp. My question is how many people actually bought that?

[genlock]

Reports now on intertubes are that his family was "dysfunctional".
He was also a pot head and a coke head.
I wouldn't doubt he listened to the devil's music.

[CoolBreeze]

Just because you can dress yourself and find your way downtown DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU'RE NOT BATSHIT CRAZY!

Screw the damned college boys with the psychiatrist degrees. THEY'RE the ones getting these batshit crazy people out of trouble all the time.

[genlock]

He failed the army entrance urine test.

[Lester]

And his anger with Gifford now pre-dates Palin and the Tea Party... (2007)

[Dave Harman]

I think this guy may have been influenced by the violence on Jersey Shore.

[Jay Nunley]

Yeah, that show makes me want to shoot people. Well, mostly it makes me want to shoot myself.